10 sats \ 11 replies \ @_stacktoshi OP 6 Sep \ parent \ on: Fold card is highly sus and oh yeah, fucKYC bitcoin
I said I'd be happy to take this down if I'm convinced otherwise. I really want to be wrong about this success story and can't stand tradfi.
Are they really a bitcoin business though? They're giving users some of their bitcoin in exchange for something. Yes, they have a treasury, but they're not doing it for anyone's benefit except their own. Being a bitcoiner is not about altruism.
This isn't just one bad experience. It's two. 2 for 2. This policy has been in place for at least 10 months. Wondering if you're on some sort of fincen watch list is NOT a good feeling.
Yes they are. You need to understand their business model.
Think about it like this.
Fold is a bitcoin rewards company. At first they were going to use the lightning network to make purchases of gift cards and offer sats back on those purchases.
This didn’t scale and wasn’t profitable for the following reasons:
- Not many people use lightning to make payments
- Bitcoiners are scared to spend because of cap gains tax by IRS
- Bitcoiners rather spend dirty fiat than precious sats
So they pivoted and made a deal with visa and moved into the rewards business.
Visa charges banks and merchants fees to process transactions. As people swipe their cards (debit and credit) more fees are earned by Visa and the banks. So when you use your bank branded Visa card they make a little fee on every swipe. Currently banks can’t do anything with bitcoin so they offer other rewards like points and cash back. What fold does is pay you out the rewards in bitcoin and the revenue they make they pay their expenses then stack bitcoin. That is why they have 1,000 BTC on their balance sheet. And the more bitcoin they stack the better it is for all bitcoiners.
The current regulations make it nearly impossible to operate a legal financial business using bitcoin. Fold is coming for the rewards pie and doing a good job of it.
I’m not on some watch list I just understand how hard it is to build a business on bitcoin. While they don’t meet your expectations then don’t use them. What I’m trying do is bring a diff ent way of thinking instead of this group think everything is bad and evil and these stupid purity tests. Even Hal himself believed in bitcoin banks.
reply
No, I was saying I feel like I'm on some watchlist because they're not telling me what I did wrong.
The rewards market is crap. It's just an elaborate network marketing kickback scheme. Sellers pass on all CC fee costs they incur to buyers. Buyers believe they're getting "rewarded", but it's really just enticing them to be data-mined by one card over another. Yeah, some of the reward is covered by late and financing fees, and some of the transaction costs does actually cover operational expenses, but at the end of the day, if rewards didn't exist, all fees (merchant & late fees) would be lower, in a competitive environment. People just like feeling special, even though they're just being socially engineered.
reply
because they're not telling me what I did wrong.
Companies don't have to tell you anything, they even tell you that they don't with "at our sole discretion" phrases in their ToS. Fold has that, too:
3. Access to the ServicesFold retains the right, at our sole discretion, to deny service or use of the Services or an account to anyone at any time and for any reason.
I know it sucks as a customer but from their perspective, it's reasonable.
reply
When did I claim companies had no legal right to be dicks? This post is about Fold being dicks when they don’t have to be. They don’t owe me anything if they don’t want people like me as customers. It’s okay though, I shouldn’t be the “free” product anyway.
reply
When did I claim companies had no legal right to be dicks?
From your reply:
If I'm denied credit, the creditor must tell me why. The fact that you won't tell me makes me think there's something nefarious going on there.
You're acting entitled to information you're not (and apparently even know you're not) and even claim they are doing something illegal.
This post is about Fold being dicks when they don’t have to be
Where is their dick move? That they simply denied you service and information like any other company would reasonably do in such a case?
Afaict, you're being a dick to them:
Please escalate this case to someone with common sense there.
reply
Illegal and nefarious are two separate things. KYC is legal. It is also immoral, given the ways it can ruin someone’s life via identity theft and unwarranted surveillance by the state. It totally violates the spirit of the 4th Amendment. Forget the current law for a second: why are they entitled to a lot of my personal information but I’m not entitled to information why they believe I’m a risk? Does that make any moral sense?
reply
reply
It’s a dick move to bury shit like that and you know it. As if anyone reads any of that. There’s a presumption with terms of service that you’ll get service by complying with the terms. I complied and didn’t get service.