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0 sats \ 10 replies \ @ninjagrandma65 OP 15 Aug \ parent \ on: Vote With Your Feet, A Short Story BooksAndArticles
We will go in circles if we are not using trad the same in a discussion. I think that's why I differentiate between 'trad' and 'traditional'. They are used differently in cultural media, or at the least, they are different things in reality.
Was it GK Chesterton who said tradition is the democracy of the dead? It's a beautiful idea.
I think when a woman is saying loudly "I want a job, I want to create, I was to contribute," that is hardly a female partner taking on practically no responsibility. She is certainly saying "you are I both are not obligated to be house servants," and I think it's unfair to frame that as 'women are taking on no responsibility anymore'. As though men treating a woman well and supporting her as much as she supports him obligates her to drudgery. Honestly, come on. Kind of ridiculous.
I truly think a good marriage is going to allow both partners to take primary responsibility for what they are best at or enjoy most. My mom mowed the lawn, to the judgment of many neighbor wives, because she LOVED doing it. She did the finances, because she was the better at math. And my dad did the things he was better at. Nobody cared what the roles were 'supposed' to be; they did their strengths. And nobody said, "You're a woman, so this IS your strength" and tried to force fit them into boxes. I mean, the neighbors did with lawn mowing. But my parents did not. And we got lots of laughs about it.
To say women aren't making sacrifices at all.... suggests to me folks are hanging out at clubs around club women too much. It also tells me men are being willfully blind; women sacrifice so much. I would never say men do not, but for men to say women do not is...... so blind. With all due respect. Blind as fuck.
Every birth is risking our lives. Choosing a man is risking our lives, because while most men aren't evil, the ones who are hide it very well and the cost is everything... and it's not a rare occurrence. Women sacrifice their ambitions just as much as men, arguably more so throughout history. This is evidenced by most male geniuses had family, while most female geniuses had no children at all.
To suggest that the only fair arrangement for women to be treated well is for them to give up so much... seems silly and ridiculous to me. Personally.
And do not twist this into me saying men don't give up and sacrifice much. Of course they do.
I don't think you're reading me generously. I'm not saying "women are taking on no responsibility anymore." I'm saying men aren't allowed to have traditional expectations of women without being labelled as controlling abusers while women are allowed to have the same "protect and provide" expectations of men.
I'm not saying women shouldn't be free of traditional expectations if they want to be free of them. I'm saying that if women want to be free of traditional expectations, men aren't going to sign up to let women hold them to traditional expectations. Men are going to choose to be single (which they are choosing en masse ... which I hypothesize is due to this expectation mismatch for lack of a better hypothesis).
And do not twist this into me saying men don't give up and sacrifice much. Of course they do.
I wasn't responding to anything you said there, nor was I implying that it was in reference to anything you said. Accusations like this are enough of a sign that this has turned unproductive.
Thanks again for the productive parts of the convo.
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I want men to provide me the safe space to pursue my goals and dreams, not the safe space to be their unpaid household servant, you know? I guess I just don't see men as truly protecting/providing when all their protection and providing does is give them the right to tell me what to do. It's not a tradeoff I'm personally willing to pay. Which I suppose is why women aren't signing up to be held to traditional expectations and also choosing to be single en masse.
It certainly IS an expectation mismatch.... kind of feels like a game of chicken too. Who blinks first?
lol, if women were withholding sex with abstinence before marriage, it would definitely be the men. The women would win this. Irony I guess.
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Yep, it's an old fashioned standoff. Something has to give.
What would work, generically, on the male side afaict: have equally unrestricted expectations of men, i.e. if they don't want to protect and provide, allow them to negotiate through some other means equal status/worthiness to men that do want to protect and provide.
The fundamental thing is I imagine that people, man or woman, want a fair trade. I also think that men value partners that give overlapping value, and partnership for partnership's sake, less. I'm unsure if that's true for women, but it might be. It's like a factory line where workers are only trained on one section.
lol, if women were withholding sex with abstinence before marriage
This would work if it were only possible for men to get sex through marriage (though it might exacerbate the problem like a minimum wage). Divorce rates would probably increase a lot too I imagine, because I don't think it changes the expectation mismatch and courtship could be more common but less honest.
Absent an end to the standoff, I think the market replaces families. Men and women protect and provide for themselves and pay people to be surrogates in a partner's stead: household servants, relatively infrequent emotional/physical companions, baby makers, and nannies. It's not desirable obviously, but that's where it looks like it's going.
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What maddens me about this dilemma is how relatively inflexible men are. Caveman Grok is a man for a reason. Grok says, "Grok protect and provide, Grok do no nothing else." Even if men were still generically desirable while not protecting and providing, I'm not sure enough men would be able to switch biological purposes very well. We can be derelict in duty easily but changing duty requires a relatively unique and powerful man.
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I always think of a government saying "we're here to protect you".
Protection is creating a land where citizens are free to pursue their dreams and happiness, of their own volition, that THEY choose themselves.
The second the government says "we're here to protect you, you'll have to serve us the way we tell you to though"... you've gone into tyranny, not protection. And tyranny is dangerous af.
Women do not want tyranny and the danger that comes with that, masquerading as 'protection'. I think that's what it comes down to. We see the falsity of these claims.
Protection is fine. But is it really protection? If I cannot pursue my dreams, happiness, and choices?
Thing is.... a LOT of people do still get married. Happily. Even couples that are more modern. It's a very real thing. I also suspect there will be many upcoming trad divorces. Give it 3-10 more years. I think if I'm right... it's a tragedy.
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A lot of people do still get married. That's for sure.
Our World in Data has some cool stats on how that's going.
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Out of curiosity, is their definition of marriage purely with a government issued marriage certificate?
I wonder if perhaps people are trending toward a more organic marriage, but the term marriage was co-opted by governments, and so there is not currently a term for a man and woman living together, being exclusive, and raising a family and pooling resources.
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hmm
"In recent decades there has been a decline in global marriage rates, and at the same time, there has been an increase in cohabitation. What’s the combined effect if we consider marriage and cohabitation together?
The chart below plots estimates and projections, from the UN Population Division, for the percentage of women of reproductive age (15 to 49 years) who are either married or living with an unmarried partner.
Overall, the trend shows a global decline – but only a relatively small one, from 69% in 1970 to 64% projected for 2020. At any given point in the last five decades, around two-thirds of all women were married or cohabitated."
Odd paragraph, I'm intrigued by this one I didn't expect;
"For older people the trend is reversed – the share of older women who never got married is declining. In the 1971 census, the share of women 60-64 who had ever been married was lower than it is for women in that age bracket in the decades since."