21 sats \ 8 replies \ @kepford 5 Jul \ on: BDMD #3 - Bitcoin is illegal because it is not legal tender bitcoin_beginners
@DarthCoin
I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by this. There was a time when governments minted gold coins (minted meaning melted them down into coins). They would stamp the image of the ruler on them or something like that.
They use gold as the medium of exchange. Taxes were levied in these gold coins. The government had a treasury of gold and silver. Loans were made with gold and silver. Interest was paid in these metals as well.
Now, would you say these governments adopted gold? Adopted meaning they recognized its value by using it. I would say yes. Now, I do NOT think that this was required to validate gold. Gold was used as a store of value and medium of exchange outside of governments as well as between them. Money pre-dates the state. Many modern dumb economists seem to believe the money doesn't exist without the state. Its rather absurd.
So, I assume you do not mean this when you say no government will adopt bitcoin. If bitcoin destroys fiat currencies which we see it doing slowly right now at some point either the states will fail or they will start using bitcoin like they previously used gold. They will try to inflate it as they tried with gold. I think you mean that governments are just opposed to bitcoin because bitcoin is anti-government by design.
Another question. If governments are just just corporations that have tricked the masses into believing have legitimate power can a corporation adopt bitcoin? I believe a corporation can adopt bitcoin. Adopt is probably the wrong word here. Use is probably a better word.
Gold was used as a store of value and medium of exchange outside of governments as well as between them.
For who? For you? I don't think so.
Who is the government?
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Come on @DarthCoin. I'm trying to understand what you mean by your statements.
You know I'm not a statist. this has nothing to do with legitimacy. I know who the government is. What do you mean by "adopt"?
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Govs cannot "produce" anything, right?
They just use debt. Is Bitcoin debt?
For a gov to adopt Bitcoin, it must mine it and then use it to pay for its employees and costs. But that will not be anymore a gov as we know it. Will be a pure commercial company.
If a gov (as a common public enterprise, owned by everybody) will mine BTC, will have to be considered a common good, so each individual that is also the "owner" of that enterprise will have to agree for what is spent that BTC mined.
If you think of a gov as adopting bitcoin by buying it, then the question is with who's money they buy it? The logical answer will be "with people taxes", but in fact is not like that. They buy it with mode debt, printing more fiat.
That's why I said: Bitcoin can be adopted only by individuals and not by govs / countries. Govs cannot manage properly the custody of these BTC and will always try to go back to fiat system...
Bitcoin will change TOTALLY the whole system as we think it is in something new, based on individual property. Govs as we know them, cannot exist in a Bitcoin world. They simply succumb itself.
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Govs cannot "produce" anything, right?
Correct. Governments steal the products of individuals and use it for their own goals.
They just use debt. Is Bitcoin debt?
Bitcoin isn't debt. Neither is gold. They both can function as a medium of exchange. But, I could borrow from you and agree to pay you interest in gold or bitcoin. This is possible with any medium of exchange. I could borrow bitcoin from you and in exchange agree to work it off.
This all has nothing to do with the legitimacy of government. Governments are criminal gangs. Can gangs use a medium of exchange? Can money be stolen or extorted? Of course it can.
I think you are just talking about the legitimacy of the state? So if by "adopt bitcoin" you mean can the state legitimately acquire bitcoin the answer is no. They can't. They also can't legitimately acquire gold or anything that has value. They only steal. If this is what you mean then I'm in agreement with you.
But, governments do steal bitcoin today(US Gov) and some acquire it using stolen fiat from their subjects(El Salvador Gov). And if I'm understanding you correctly you are saying El Salvador hasn't "adopted bitcoin" because they do not obtain it under lawful means because by definition the state (any state) is illegitimate under natural law. They have not gained the consent to do what they are doing. They only use force to obtain value.
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Yes, they steal it because they are fucking mafia. Nothing else.
They only use force to obtain value.
Exactly that.
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OK, thanks for humoring me @DarthCoin. I think I get you now and we agree.
I truly believe bitcoin will slowly destroy the state by incentives as it exposes it for what it is. Curious if you believe that will happen as well. I have no idea how long that will take but I believe it will happen.
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Curious if you believe that will happen as well
My answer is simple and always the same:
But with kind of people we have nowadays, with fiat mindset deep into their brains, It will take a loooooong way to achieve that dream.
I truly think now that Bitcoin is only for the brave, the freedom fighters and will use it whatever will take as a "weapon" against the system.
Centuries of human stupidity cannot be wiped out in just few years.
Not in our lifetime....
As I always said: Bitcoin is my plan B, not a plan A...
where Plan A is skills, knowledge, self-sufficiency, living a simple life
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