21 sats \ 20 replies \ @HardRich 1 May \ parent \ on: if bitcoin became illegal by law (part two) Personal_Finance
As I mention elsewhere, the problem is KYC in the first place. If you trade $100,000 USD for Monero (or Bitcoin) and its KYC then you’re toast either way - it doesn’t matter if your account “disappears”.
If you can buy non-KYC then either Bitcoin or Monero is safe from government. The only issue would be when purchasing stuff with your crypto. With Monero no one would know your balance. However, with some legwork you can get the same privacy with Bitcoin.
KYC is the issue. It’s an issue for Bitcoin and it’s just as big of an issue for Monero or any other privacy coin.
Also, while you could theoretically use monero with tor on darknet markets and remain more anonymous I certainly couldn't spend it in meat space without getting handcuffed at the cash register. Monero is equally of no use if you can't spend it.
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All that is external to keeping transactions private on a blockchain.
So yes, Monero or Bitcoin can't help with that. But even in a world without KYC you still don't want third parties or counter parties snooping on your transaction history and balances.
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Can Monero scale way better than Bitcoin? If not, and it requires Layer 2 tech then it's a bit moot since Bitcoin is building out Layer 2 pretty quickly and privacy is coming with it. It's already pretty close to grandma level. My young kiddo is already pretty good at Layer 2 tech.
If Monero can scale WAY better than Bitcoin and if privacy becomes WAY more important to people vs gains then perhaps Monero will take the lead. Sadly, though, people care more about growth than privacy - at least right now. And again, if bitcoin has enough time to mature Layer 2 tech then it's highly possible privacy and growth will be better with Bitcoin.
Personally, I think to have a global ledger that could be the world reserve currency we SHOULD have an open ledger like Bitcoin so as to keep bankers, countries, politicians, etc honest. The privacy could be done at smaller, Layer 2-3 levels for average citizens. But, who knows what the future holds.
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Can Monero scale way better than Bitcoin?
It can't. Monero transactions consume more blockspace and takes more CPU time to verify.
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please stop, everyone has different opinions. I think we forget the most important aspect of all, both bitcoin and monero want freedom. One is not against the other. I consider Eth valuable too, like silver. XMR for copper. Both are distinctly different but have different purposes. Can you put a smart contract on bitcoin? Each crypto is different but ultimately have the same goal. Instead of fighting off each other- come up with ideas to push other countries to adopt crypto to get off this sh*t fiat system.
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It's not opinion, it's a fact, Monero is worse at scaling than Bitcoin.
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This is true technically.
It is technically worse in the same way a child would have a harder time trying to physically stop a train versus an adult. One is stronger than the other, but that hardly matters at those scales. Neither is going to succeed in doing that in their current state.
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Agreed, folks should be open minded. It is sad to see some folks that are rather bull -headed about just having a discussion. I'm a pretty hardcore bitcoiner and have studied it pretty well - I therefore have confidence in my opinion and can be open-minded. Folks that fight against an open discussion seem less secure to me.
That being said, @kristapsk may know what he's talking about (I don't think he's being closed minded like some folks in this thread). Otherwise, @Hamstr, do you know if Monero can scale as well or better than Bitcoin?
I think the question of scaling is relevant because IF layer 2 becomes the norm in the future and IF layer 2 can have privacy then that seems like a win for bitcoin. Or, said another way, at that point, what value does Monero have over bitcoin?
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I not entirely 100% sure, but from my understanding, over-time is gets better the more people that use it and transact in it. So it gets cheaper to send transactions, it gets more anonymous they are upgrading from ringCT16 to full dev mode which goes up to 100,000. Its a new development, so I'm a bit unfamiliar with this so don't bite my head if I'm giving you wrong info.
right now, to send a transaction to you is at most $0.01 if high high priority. but often times it less then a penny
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Everything you said is pretty much correct. The RingCT upgrade is called Seraphis btw, which basically makes your transaction potentially part of any transaction on chain. Can't understate how massive an improvement this will be.
There are a lot of other benefits like forward secrecy, better viewkeys, multisig, etc and cleans up many other smaller and larger issues Monero has
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Can Bitcoin scale to 100s millions? billions? No. Not even close. Not even lightning does. Then it is kind of moot. Both would collapse well before this kind of adoption. Neither scales right now (over time they may)
Tech isn't static, efficiency improvements occur, and better protocols can be adopted. Monero has a long history of this.
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Is it your assumption then that Monero won't need any layer 2 tech and that the base layer will be able to scale out well enough? That'd be cool, if so. If it can't, if it requires a layer 2 or 3 to scale then I go back to my argument which is that Bitcoin can get privacy on layer 2 and/or 3 (fediments and ecash, for example). If the vast majority of the world is using Bitcoin layer 2 or 3 and you get privacy with that then how is Monero better?
I'll fully admit that Monero is better than Bitcoin on the base layer in terms of privacy - of course, no shock there. However, neither of them can scale to any large degree on their own (as far as I understand) and both would need layer 2 or 3 tech to scale, right? And again, if privacy can be had on bitcoin layer 2 or 3 then I'm just not sure I see the benefit of Monero in the long term.
In the short-to-medium term perhaps Monero is better. Or, if governments go nutty quickly (before bitcoin layer 2/3 can get enough privacy) then Monero will be the only real option to avoid corruption. So, I'm glad we have Monero for the possibility of short-to-medium term corruption. That being said, my vote (aka my money) is on bitcoin in terms of it's long-term potential and demand. But, I'm glad that Monero exists.
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:) Thank you guys. I appreciate your discussions.
In fact, I'm very happy. This is probably my first time being able to about to talk about Monero without being called a Shitcoiner. This has been healthy. @HardRich I am glad BTC and XMR exist. @yo2xncv0 seems you're more versed with XMR then I am. Thank you both, for your discussions. I feel like the guy on "FamilyFued" or something like that. I wish there was an XMR_Privacy category on SN. Cause who knows how to be anon better then the XMR community?
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Can't anyone start a community? Maybe you or another big Monero person could start it? Though, to be honest, you'd have to be comfortable with a lot of trolls. I'm all for being a bitcoin maxi but some folks do tend to push it too far.
To be fair, there are a lot of coins that are scams so it's fair to be very skeptical and call it out and I think bitcoin maxis are generally a good thing. But some are certainly overboard and ought to be more secure about their positions instead of being so defensive. And, Monero has been around for a long while now so it's pretty clear it's not a scam at this point.
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it cost 100k sats a month and 3mil to keep forever. When I reach that- I may open that category and may HEAVILY moderate it because I know it'll recieve a lot of hate. why? Because like you said, many BTC maxi push it too far.
Heavily depends on the rate of adoption, protocol improvements, and advances in tech. Maybe crypto will always be a niche thing then it won't need to scale how we think. Who knows? I do know Seraphis starts making layers possible on Monero. I just really don't like how ecash is not self-custodial. That's a major pillar of Bitcoin and we are back to banks. Otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with it if there was a way to do it without trusting a third party.
Good talk with ArticMine on scaling Monero:
Bitcoin to me is a concept that spawned all these iterations of cryptocurrencies. BTC is just one of these and all these other cryptos are speciations that will live and die. Almost like an organism evolving and finding niches in the market. We probably won't recognize most major cryptos 15 years from now.
I think crypto will diverge into two major camps as time progresses: RegFi (captured, regulated systems - a failure of the original goal) and DarkFi (anti-fragile, underground, and heavy use of cryptography for anonymity and privacy)
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How is it moot? Lightning and Bitcoin both don't scale. Even for Lightning to kind of scale it needs more than 100MB blocksize and that is being conservative. ~95% of lightning users don't use it sovereignly (without custodians or permission) and even the tiny bit that do arent completely private. All these L2s so far gut the sovereignty of on chain transactions.
Technology is not static. It's always getting better and cheaper. Monero won't need to scale for awhile and when it does we can just make it more efficient as we did with bulletproofs or upgrade the protocol like what is coming down the road with Jamtis and Seraphis.
I always find your last argument to be fairly weak. Bankers, political crooks, and tyrants will never use a transparent currency. If they wanted to be upfront and honest they would be doing that now. And even if you can see what they do...what are you going to do about it? Right now they are sending billions of our money to foreign nations and no one is doing a thing about it.
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It's moot if layer 2 bitcoin gets privacy. As in, if both Monero and Bitcion require Layer 2 or Layer 3 to scale to the world AND if privacy can be had in Layers 2 or 3 then I'm not sure I see the benefit of Monero in the long run.
I think the argument about bankers and countries is far from weak. Look at the gold standard back when it was a thing. It was huge. Countries were using it all the time. If Bitcoin (or Monero, or any other) become a world reserve currency then nations, bankers, etc will be using it - they will either want to or have to. If there is a far superior money/asset then everyone will want to use it. Now, I suppose you could argue that fiat will never die and crypto will always be a second-class citizen. If that's the case, then my argument is weak.
Anyway, I appreciate your replies. I do like Monero and keep an eye on it. I, personally, think bitcoin will get privacy on layer 2 or 3 and that it'll become the common way to use it. I could be totally wrong, though. In the meantime, I'd be more than happy if Monero got way bigger and was accepted in way more places. I see no reason why I wouldn't trade my bitcoin for Monero to have privacy when buying stuff (assuming I can't get it with layer 2/3 bitcoin). I like that folks are building out multiple solutions - and Monero may very well be the one that tops the list.
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The problem is the base layer will always be the weak spot for any upper layers of privacy exactly like it is now for lightning closing/opening. And it breaks fungibility of Bitcoin as a whole. I agree that neither Monero or Bitcoin will necessarily be around in the long run. Could be something else.
Yea, but look at where gold got us. Who uses actual gold? They IOU'd the shit out of it and relegated it to an impotent pet rock which seems to be the path Bitcoin is on.
Maybe you are right we will see. Let's see if Bitcoin layers can have strong privacy without sacrificing sovereignty of on chain. That would make both camps happy I think.
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with legwork, is grandma going to go through that when she's having a hard time just using QR codes?
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