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20 sats \ 10 replies \ @rtr 27 Apr \ on: Sill bullish on eCash? bitcoin
I like Fedimints coupled with Lightning since it makes managing liquidity a non-issue. It's very beginner-friendly and the privacy benefits are a nice bonus as well.
It makes it easy to get people started with small amounts of Bitcoin that they can immediately use to purchase things.
I prefer getting people into Bitcoin by showing what you can do with it. Why it's better than paying using credit cards, etc.
Starting with an hour-long lecture on Lightning, channel management, on-chain privacy, and self-custody will just push them away.
It makes it easy to get people started with small amounts of Bitcoin that they can immediately use to purchase things.
This is only true if mints do not require KYC. Once mints are forced to act like the other custodians, they will also require KYC.
...the privacy benefits are a nice bonus as well
Yes, its great! I just wonder who is going to actually operate these (fedi) mints in practice.
Each mint has its own eCash token that is only redeemable at that particular mint. So for a mint's token to be useful in commerce, it needs to be very popular. (Or a market need to develop that makes it easy to exchange tokens for more sailable ones).
A very popular centralized privacy service is a prime target to be forcefully shutdown. Especially if the service is collecting substantial fee revenues.
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This is only true if mints do not require KYC. Once mints are forced to act like the other custodians, they will also require KYC.
How hard would it be to just go to a different mint that doesn't require KYC? As far as I understand it, a fedimint can move liquidity between different mints using Lightning.
I just wonder who is going to actually operate these (fedi) mints in practice.
Basing from the fedimint pitch, they intend the tech to be used in small to medium size communities. Ideally, groups where users are large enough that they have sizable liquidity when pooled but small enough that rugpulling will have severe social consequences.
Image source: Fedimint.org
Each mint has its own eCash token that is only redeemable at that particular mint. So for a mint's token to be useful in commerce, it needs to be very popular.
I think the intent of Fedimint is to make it so that every mint is interoperable between each other. There's no "Alice's Sats" and "Bob's Sats." Mutiny Wallet does it already with its fedimint implementation, you can join a federation and send "eSats" to users from other federations and even use that for non-Fedimint Lightning payments.
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Then you give up the privacy that eCash offers
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ecash (at least as currently implemented) is an IOU note issued by the mint. Usually it's denominated in sats but both fedi and cashu can in principle support fiat denominations.
Fedimints are connected to LN through a gateway that exchanges between ecash and LN sats. For cashu mints, the mint itself is the gateway.
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Fedimints are communities on Fedi? (is that correct?)
So,
I would need to trust them, then?
Is there a map or something, because this isn't registering in my thick skull.
Also, I don't understand ecash, fedimints, cashu mints, mints. I only understand Fedi is an app. This really seems like a pain in the ass to learn compared to XMR. Which is excessively easier than what you're describing to me as they use RingCT 16.
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Ecash is money as a piece of text that you can just copy and paste or transmit with a QR-code or with a private message or however you want. It's a bearer asset: you have the piece of text = you have money. Usually ecash is an IOU but European Union plans to issue euros as ecash as well.
Mint is anything that issues ecash. It's the job of the mint to prevent double spending. When you receive ecash, you need to contact the mint to make sure it wasn't already spent. If it wasn't, you get fresh ecash of the same value. If you want, the old coin is melt and a new coin is minted, hence the name.
Fedimint is the software for running a mint as a group. A group mint running fedimint is also called fedimint because "fedimint-running mint" sounds stupid. Cashu is the software for running a solo mint. Fedi is the app to use fedimints.
Which is excessively easier than what you're describing to me as they use RingCT 16.
Can't agree here. Fedi is very user-friendly. In comparison, XMR mobile wallets need you to sync the chain all the time. With ecash you can push money: "here, scan this, here's 1k sats for you" but with XMR you can only pull ("give me your address so I can send you some piconeros"). Mint transactions are final in seconds, there's no waiting for the next blocks to confirm.
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That's not what I meant. You use ecash but there's a gateway. You go to a vendor and pay with LN through the gateway. The vendor might receive it in ecash through the mint he trusts or can just use LN directly, you don't care.
This works in cashu/fedi already. The gateway doesn't have to know who you are. The part where you give up privacy is the chat: your Fedi client connects to the chat server(s) asking "any dms for nullcount?" when you open your wallet.
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