(Spanish at the end / Español al final)
It's been almost a year since my post "I'm losing my faith" (#165552), and I think it's time for an update. How are things going now? Have we gotten better? Have we gotten worse? Here's how I see it:
Over the past few months, the problem of Ordinals and Inscriptions has remained. At least it hasn't gotten worse, but it looks like the 10 sats/vbyte is the new 1 sat/vbyte. I don't want to go too deeply into this, which has already been developed by others much better than I can do. I just want the "it's the free market, if you pay the fees you're in" folks to think about what would happen if someone goes to the theater, pays for their ticket, walks in and takes a shit next to the screen. As he has paid his ticket and there is no written rule that forbids it (he is complying with the rules), is it his right to do it?
Another thing that strikes me is the veneration that bitcoiners have for Michael Saylor... which is growing despite the nonsense he says, and the fact that he hasn't even shown that he has the Bitcoin he claims to have. Remember the "Don't trust, verify"? He has said that Bitcoin is not there to compete with the dollar, and that you can't use it to pay, but that it's OK because "no one who owns a building on 5th Avenue would pay for a coffee with it either." Of course not, because you can't pay for a coffee with a piece of building, but you can with Bitcoin. The man invents his own metaphors ("Bitcoin is energy!") and doesn't seem to be able to see much beyond them and his AI-generated images. He has paid for a subscription to ChatGPT and I guess you have to put it to use? Did you guys see that video on Bitcoin Atlantis where he's treated like a rock star, Saylor, Saylor, Saylor, Saylor, Saylor!!!!! I thought we were in all this to have an alternative to fiat... but whatever.
Unlike Michael Saylor, Bukele (another reference in the Bitcoin space) has at least shown... an address on the blockchain where there are some Bitcoin. Not that it means much, but it's already more than Saylor has done. Here I have to give a warning that comes true 100% of the time: there are only 2 kinds of politicians, those who have already let you down, and those who soon will. Stop cheering for him, or maybe in a few months you'll have to start deleting tweets. And on the other hand, it is important to remember that the wealth hoarded by the rulers is not the wealth of the ruled. The wealth hoarded by the state is for the state, for its own benefit, and the people are not the state. Bukele will keep his bitcoin as long as he wants, and sell them at the drop of a hat when he deems it appropriate, and with that money he will do something good for the people, or not. It happens in every country in the world, and El Salvador will be no different. It reminds me of my fellow citizens when they say that public things "are theirs". No, my son, you only finance them, but they are theirs.
By the way, when Bukele published the address where El Salvador's bitcoins are supposedly located, several bitcoiners started donating money to those addresses. See what I mean? Bitcoins donated to a repressive machine as by definition a state is? "But nobody tells us bitcoiners what we can do with our money!". Right, of course...
And what about the big Bitcoin OGs, who no longer talk about Bitcoin's features and goodness, but about the price in fiat that it will reach in the coming months? We have gone from "one of the few people featured in the Bitcoin whitepaper", to "$1 million before halving". We've ostracized PlanB for their rainbow model predictions, but we have important people in the industry predicting "Bitcoin at $4.7 million by 2036". Why are we giving them that free pass that we haven't (rightly) given to PlanB? What happens when people trust them because "they are important people who know what's going on", put in all their life savings, the price of Bitcoin drops 80%, and we start seeing suicide posts on the forums?
Ah, but 80% declines are "no longer possible". We have had them many times, but now we are not going to have them again, because of ETFs. The ETFs that have helped us to make the price of fiat go up and make us richer? How could we not like them? We like them so much, that now the big influencers are divided between those who think it's better to buy ETFs, and those who think it's better to buy Microstrategy shares. Cypherpunks to the power! There is also a diversity of opinions between those who believe that Bitcoin will go up a lot, and those who believe it will go to the moon: "I don't think we will reach 2 million dollars this year, I think we will only reach $800,000...". There is no longer an option for the price to go down, even though the price has dropped almost 13% in just 3 days.... How could this happen? I thought that between Saylor and BlackRock they were going to buy all the bitcoin, and we'd be on the moon in no time!!!! By the way, BlackRock, that company that used to be the devil, and now it's a bit cooler, because its CEO "has seen how good bitcoin is". Aha... tell me more.

And by the way, why do we let people who have obvious interests in L2s and sidechains tell us that Bitcoin is fine as it is, and that nothing can be done against Ordinals, and that we'd better suck it up and use Liquid? Ah, Liquid... that "solution to the scalability problem", as is eCash and Fedimint? If Cashu, Fedi and Liquid are "solutions to the scalability problem", I may not have really understood what Bitcoin is.... Now it turns out that using "tokens" issued by a certain centralized entity, and which can only be exchanged for Bitcoin if that entity keeps a server running, is that an alternative? And why don't we directly use Monero or BCH as a "scalability solution"? I really, really don't get it. I must have missed something...
And finally, the other big distraction for the Bitcoin ecosystem: Nostr. Nostr is that technology that started out being used to create chat clients for a social network that only talks about how good Nostr, ETFs and Microstrategy are, and that, like "the blockchain", it is inherently good and therefore needs to be embedded everywhere, even though the incentives of the participants are not aligned. Thus, Bitcoin apps and even wallets are adding "Nostr technology", and Nostr chat clients are adding "bitcoin wallets". Who would want their Nostr client to be a wallet where they store their bitcoin? I don't get it, but apparently the trend now is for someone to write "BITCOIN AND NOSTR TO THE MOON" all in capital letters, and hundreds of people give them their sats, because it's "a way to support the content". Well, what can I say... An "open system" to fight censorship promoted by the man who censored the president of the USA and many scientists during the plandemy. The very same man that tries to sell you his hardware wallet "to improve your use of Bitcoin", that cannot be paid using Bitcoin. Man...
So much for my frustration. I'm sure most of my criticisms are due to gaps in my knowledge, so I hope to learn a lot this year so I can be less frustrated and share with my fellow bitcoiners the admiration for Saylor, Bukele, the "Bitcoin OGs", Cashu, and sell some Bitcoin so I can buy a few BlackRock ETFs. Also buying a Bitcoin hardware wallet with fiat money.
================== Spanish from here ==================
Ha pasado casi un año desde mi post "Estoy perdiendo mi fe" (#165552), y creo que va siendo hora de hacer una actualización. ¿Cómo van las cosas ahora? ¿Hemos mejorado? ¿Hemos empeorado? Así es como yo lo veo:
En los últimos meses, el problema de los Ordinals y las Inscriptions se ha mantenido. Al menos no ha empeorado, pero parece que los 10 sats/vbyte son los nuevos 1 sat/vbyte. No quiero profundizar demasiado en esto, que ya ha sido desarrollado por otros mucho mejor de lo que yo puedo hacer. Solamente quiero que los del "es el libre mercado, si pagas los fees estás dentro" piensen en qué pasaría si alguien va al cine, paga su entrada, entra y se pone a cagar al lado de la pantalla. Como ha pagado su entrada y no hay ninguna norma escrita que lo prohiba (está cumpliendo las normas), ¿está en su derecho de hacerlo?
Otra cosa que me llama la atención es la veneración que los bitcoiners profesan a Michael Saylor... que va en aumento a pesar de las bobadas que dice, y de que ni siquiera ha mostrado que tenga los Bitcoin que dice tener. ¿Recuerdan el "Don't trust, verify"? Ha dicho que Bitcoin no está para competir con el dolar, y que no se puede usar para pagar, pero que no pasa nada porque "tampoco nadie que tenga un edificio en la 5ª avenida pagaría un café con él". Claro que no, porque no puedes pagar un café con un trozo de edificio, pero sí puedes hacerlo con Bitcoin. El hombre inventa sus propias metáforas ("Bitcoin is energy!") y parece que no sea capaz de ver mucho más allá de ellas y de sus imágenes generadas con IA. Ha pagado la suscripción a ChatGPT y supongo que hay que darle uso... ¿Habéis visto ese vídeo en Bitcoin Atlantis donde se le trata como a una estrella del rock? ¡¡¡Saylor, Saylor, Saylor, Saylor!!! Pensaba que estábamos en todo esto para tener una alternativa al fiat... pero en fin.
A diferencia de Michael Saylor, Bukele (otra referencia en el espacio Bitcoin) por lo menos ha mostrado... una dirección en la blockchain donde hay un número de Bitcoin. No es que signifique demasiado, pero ya es más de lo que ha hecho Saylor. Aquí tengo que dar una advertencia que se cumple el 100% de las veces: solamente hay 2 clases de políticos, los que ya te han defraudado, y los que pronto lo harán. Dejen de vitorearle, no vaya a ser que dentro de unos meses tengan que empezar a borrar tweets. Y por otro lado, es importante recordar que la riqueza que atesoran los gobernantes no es la riqueza de los gobernados. La riqueza que atesora el estado es para el estado, para su propio beneficio, y las personas no son el estado. Bukele mantendrá sus bitcoin tanto tiempo como quiera, y los venderá a la primera de cambio cuando lo considere apropiado, y con ese dinero hará algo bueno para el pueblo, o no. Ocurre en todos los países del mundo, y El Salvador no va a ser diferente. Me recuerda a mis conciudadanos cuando dicen que las cosas públicas "son de ellos". No, hijo mío, tú solamente las financias, pero son de ellos.
Por cierto, cuando Bukele ha publicado la dirección donde supuestamente están los bitcoin de El Salvador, varios bitcoiners se han puesto a donar dinero a esas direcciones. ¿Ven lo que quiero decir? ¿Bitcoins donados a una máquina represiva como por definición es un estado? "¡Pero a los bitcoiners nadie nos dice qué podemos hacer con nuestro dinero!". Claro, por supuesto...
¿Y qué me dicen de los grandes Bitcoin OGs, que ya no hablan de las características y bondades de Bitcoin y sí del precio en fiat que alcanzará los próximos meses? Hemos pasado de "una de las pocas personas que aparecen en el whitepaper de Bitcoin", a "1 millón de dólares antes del halving". Hemos mandado a PlanB al ostracismo por sus predicciones con el modelo del arco-iris, pero tenemos a gente importante de la industria prediciendo "Bitcoin a 4,7 millones de dólares para 2036". ¿Por qué le damos a ellos ese pase que no le hemos permitido (con razón) a PlanB? ¿Qué pasará cuando la gente se fie de ellos porque "son gente importante que sabe lo que pasa", meta todos los ahorros de una vida, el precio de Bitcoin baje un 80% y empecemos a ver mensajes de suicidio en los foros?
Ah, pero es que bajadas del 80% "ya no son posibles". Las hemos tenido muchas veces, pero ahora ya no vamos a volver a tenerlas, por los ETF. Los ETF que nos han ayudado a que el precio en fiat suba y seamos más ricos... ¿Cómo no nos iban a gustar? Nos gustan tanto, que ahora los grandes influencers se dividen entre los que creen que es mejor comprar los ETFs, y los que creen que es mejor comprar acciones de Microstrategy. Cypherpunks al poder!! También hay diversidad de opiniones entre los que creen que Bitcoin va a subir mucho, y los que creen que va a subir muchísimo: "No creo que lleguemos a 2 millones de dólares este año, yo creo que solamente llegaremos a $800.000...". Ya no existe la opción de que el precio baje... a pesar de que el precio ha bajado casi un 13% en solo 3 días... ¿Cómo ha podido ocurrir? Yo pensaba que entre Saylor y BlackRock iban a comprar todos los bitcoin, y ¡¡llegaríamos a la luna en un periquete!! Por cierto, BlackRock, esa empresa que antes era el demonio, y que ahora ya mola un poco más, porque su CEO "ha visto lo bueno que es Bitcoin". Ahá... cuéntame más.

Y por cierto, ¿por qué dejamos que gente que tiene intereses evidentes en L2s y sidechains nos diga que Bitcoin está bien como está, y que no se puede hacer nada contra los Ordinals, y que mejor aguantarse y usar Liquid? Ah, Liquid... esa "solución al problema de escalabilidad", como lo es el eCash y Fedimint... Si Cashu, Fedi y Liquid son "soluciones al problema de escalabilidad", puede que yo no haya entendido realmente lo que es Bitcoin... Ahora resulta que usar "tokens" emitidos por una cierta entidad y que solamente pueden ser intercambiados por Bitcoin si esa entidad mantiene un servidor arrancado... ¿Eso es una alternativa? ¿Y por qué no usamos directamente Monero o BCH como "solución de escalabilidad"? De verdad, no lo entiendo. Se me debe de haber pasado algo...
Y por último, la otra gran distracción para el ecosistema Bitcoin: Nostr. Nostr es esa tecnología que empezó siendo usada para crear clientes de chat para una red social en la que solamente se habla de lo bueno que es Nostr, de los ETF y de Microstrategy, y que, como "la blockchain", es inherentemente buena y por tanto hay que incrustarla en todos los sitios, a pesar de que los incentivos de los participantes no estén alineados. Así, aplicaciones Bitcoin y hasta hasta las wallets están añadiendo "tecnología Nostr", y los clientes de chat Nostr están añadiendo "wallets bitcoin". ¿Quien querría que su cliente de Nostr sea una wallet donde se guarden sus bitcoin? Yo no lo entiendo, pero aparentemente la moda ahora es que alguien escriba "BITCOIN Y NOSTR HACIA EL FUTURO" todo en mayúsculas, y cientos de personas le regalen sus satos, porque es "una manera de apoyar el contenido". Pues qué quieren que les diga... Un "sistema abierto para luchar contra la censura" promovido por el hombre que censuró al presidente de USA y a muchos científicos durante la plandemia. El mismo hombre que intenta venderte su hardware wallet "para mejorar el uso de Bitcoin", pero que no se puede comprar con Bitcoin. En fin...
Y hasta ahí mi frustración. Estoy seguro de que la mayor parte de mis críticas son debidas a lagunas en mi conocimiento, así que espero aprender mucho este año para poder estar menos frustrado y poder compartir con mis compañeros bitcoineros la admiración por Saylor, Bukele, los "Bitcoin OGs", Cashu, y vender algunos Bitcoin para poder comprar unos cuantos ETFs de BlackRock. Y también comprar una wallet bitcoin con dinero fiat.
My suggestion. Use bitcoin the way that suits and benefits you and ignore all the noise. If you don't like the fawning over Saylor and politicians that say they are pro bitcoin, I get it. Ignore it. Do your own thing. Maybe you are into grassroots adoption or bitcoin integration in platforms like SN. Focus on the stuff that you find rewarding.
I saw this morning on twitter Fred Krueger talking about how he is using shapeshift to use his BTC as collateral to get more BTC and I am thinking "what's wrong with these people, why will they never learn" but what are you going to do? I think we are well beyond the point where everyone holding/using/interacting with bitcoin is going to be ideologically aligned with us.
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I think we are well beyond the point where everyone holding/using/interacting with bitcoin is going to be ideologically aligned with us.
It just means adoption is happening. If everyone using Bitcoin were aligned with my own views, it would mean I'm the only one using Bitcoin and that would be very worrying.
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Spot on. As adoption happens, Bitcoin will evolve to mean so many different things to so many different people. Which is a good thing.
In the end, if Bitcoin wins, humanity wins. Because unlike fiat, nobody and no organization can claim ownership of the network.
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Yeah, I try to ignore everything. And also I'm a libertarian/anarchist, so if you want to buy Dogecoin because you like it, then go ahead!!
But I always try to be rational, and I cannot look to another place when I see people behaving in unrational ways...
But yes, I'll try. Again.
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20 sats \ 0 replies \ @KLT 17 Mar
THIS! Thank you. Life is crazy as is, keep it simple. Just stack sats, everything else is just noise.
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The sats are likely to flow into more sturdy and ideologically aligned hands in the end.
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On Michael Saylor:
In my opinion, he understands Bitcoin and what it ultimately means. I think he is extremely intellectual, and has as good of understanding as anyone, of what the future may hold in the Bitcoin era.
I do not think he actually believes all the statist bullshit about regulation being good, taxation, and the US dollar continuing to exist. It’s too bad he doesn’t speak freely about it, but the position he is in prohibits him from being truthful about this. Him telling people that Bitcoin will destroy the state is not necessary or helpful when explaining Bitcoin to people who haven’t seen the rabbit hole yet-it will only turn off their brains. I’m not sure if he could be voted off the board, but nothing good would happen if he is 100% honest on this point. In the end, none of this has anything to do with the value proposition of Bitcoin.
You don’t yell a war cry as you jump out of the Trojan Horse. You sneak out at night and slit the throats of your enemies while they sleep.
Saylor is just a man, who has an engineer mind and an excellent way of distilling what Bitcoin is. Study his ideas and metaphors, and as always, DYOR.
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Well, I don't know his reasons for such bad takes, and I don't care. But why is people retweeting him like "This is the way!". That's what bothers me...
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Yeah I get it, most people on twitter do not delve as deep as other places.
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Yeah, maybe I should move from Twitter to SN? :)
I agree, Saylor is the chairman of a public company. The SEC is looking for any reason to bust him
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People always have bad takes. Popular people often have the worst takes. Luckily, bitcoin is not a democracy so you can probably ignore the deluded masses and their influencoors.
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I wouldn't care about what a random influencer says in Twitter, but bitcoiners are heavily influenced by their opinions.
Just think what happened some months ago, when literally NOBODY was using Liquid, but then suddenly a few of them started saying "Yeah, Liquid is cool", and a few weeks later EVERY one of them were doing videos of how well Liquid performs, and people trying to find Liquid wallets...
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Whats wrong with liquid?
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Nothing. Just a classic "I only understand it at a very superficial level" and then giving up thinking about it any further.
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Yeah, of course you know me very well.
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The PODCONF industrial complex is a powerful institution #467362
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Indeed!
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Gracias por escribir esto. No eres el único que piensa así, ni mucho menos. No hagamos tanto caso a los influencersbocazas de Xitter. No representan a Bitcoin ni debemos dejar que nos roben nuestro tiempo ni nuestro bienestar. La gente nueva se aferra a los mesías porque pensar por uno mismo es difícil. Ya se irán dando cuenta. Se creen que el juego va de ganar dinero, pero en realidad se trata de ganar libertad.
La parte que no entiendo es la crítica hacia Nostr. Este protocolo ya existía antes de que Dorsey se metiera; él no representa a Nostr. ¿Puedes explicar lo de que los incentivos no están alineados? No le veo fundamento a la crítica en general. En Nostr, al igual que en todas partes, hay gente que tiene las ideas más claras y bocazas a gogó. En parte, depende de dónde pongamos nuestra atención.
Bitcoin y Nostr, si han de funcionar, es porque son para cualquiera, incluso para los enemigos.
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¿Puedes explicar lo de que los incentivos no están alineados?
Por ejemplo: ¿por qué alguien podría querer pagar un servidor para almacenar la información del resto de usuarios?
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @clr 17 Mar
Si te refieres a los relés, creo que nadie está diciendo que el estado actual sea el end game. Si quiero que me lean, pagaré para que se almacenen mis notas. Si quiero leer a alguien, pagaré para que se almacenen sus notas. Y es posible que algunos relés adopten modelos freemium (vendiendo servicios accesorios o permitiendo que se almacenen las notas con caducidad para quienes no paguen) u otros modelos que no nos imaginamos todavía.
Para mí, la propuesta de valor de Nostr es esta:
A decentralized social network with a chance of working. It doesn't rely on any trusted central server, hence it is resilient; it is based on cryptographic keys and signatures, so it is tamperproof; it does not rely on P2P techniques, and therefore it works.
Para mí la cuestión no es si Bitcoin o Nostr van a funcionar, sino que tenemos que hacer que funcionen y se extiendan como sea, porque no tenemos alternativa.
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Solution. Leave twitter. Then can't complain about the morons that still want to use that permissioned platform.
Other than that, I generally agree with most of your takes. Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks to you for replying. And yes, I'm thinking on leaving Twitter for SN...
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71 sats \ 6 replies \ @ek 17 Mar
Unlike Michael Saylor, Bukele (another reference in the Bitcoin space) has at least shown... an address on the blockchain where there are some Bitcoin.
Good point, Bukele could sign a message that proves they own this address. Just sharing an address is not enough.
I actually think I never saw anyone sharing signatures instead of just addresses?
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Bukele can't sign any message from that wallet because he's not in control. Bitfinex is in control
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That's not impossible...
It can be done. You sign a message "This are El Salvador's Bitcoins" with the private key of the wallet. Then you publish the generated token in Twitter and people can verify if the message has been signed by the address' private key containing the Bitcoin.
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22 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 17 Mar
I know it can be done, that's why I am asking why no one seems to do it.
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Como estas? Just so I am clear on your key points:
  • Continued issue with high fees in the Bitcoin network, with 10 sats/vbyte is the new 1 sat/vbyte
  • Criticism of Michael Saylor and his nonsensical statements about Bitcoin
  • Skepticism towards politicians like Bukele who hold Bitcoin, warning about trusting them
  • Criticism of donating Bitcoin to state entities, calling them "repressive machines"
  • Disappointment in Bitcoin OGs focusing on price predictions rather than the technology itself
  • Skepticism towards the belief that 80% price declines are no longer possible due to ETFs
  • Confusion over the push for L2s and sidechains as scaling solutions
  • Criticism of the integration of Nostr technology in Bitcoin applications and wallets
I am not going to tackle every item in the laundry list of complaints, but I will offer the following: None of these issues impact bitcoin-core. These are all peripheral phenomena. Why would you let the "publicity" aspect shake your foundational belief that Bitcoin is sound money, and better than fiat? All this noise will pass, and in the meantime....tick tock next block™.
Underneath this veneer of frustration, there is something better emerging, so:
  • Continue educating yourself further about the technology behind Bitcoin, its strengths, and limitations.
  • Engage in productive discussions with the Bitcoin community to understand different perspectives and potential solutions.
  • Support projects and initiatives that aim to address scalability issues
  • Voice concerns and suggestions in a constructive manner to help drive positive change within the Bitcoin ecosystem.
I too am critical of sensationalist or misleading statements made by prominent figures, but don't let that cloud or frustrate the much more significant picture. Money is getting reinvented right now and we are in the thick of it....
Buena suerte
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Based.
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52 sats \ 3 replies \ @anon 17 Mar
All your complaints would disappear if you got off twitter. You can use bitcoin just fine without twitter.
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Yeah... someone recommended me that, and I think it's useful advice. As a start, I'm not carrying a smartphone when I go outside. I go with a dumb-phone, or even without anything.
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hey man, if youre not feeling more optimistic after discovering bitcoin and cutting back on social media then maybe you've got a tonne of other stuff going on. if so, take care brother, wishing you only the best 🙏
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Thanks a lot, friend.
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Just to pick up on a couple of those points -
  • as a CEO of a possibly soon to be S&P company, what do you expect Saylor to say? That the dollar is doomed?! I can only imagine the type of company he keeps. He’s just about the best possible advocate Bitcoin could have for someone in his position. His articulations of Bitcoin being digital energy are pretty close to Darthcoin’s, if you ask me. Essentially about preserving a manifestation of energy across time and space. I’m afraid people are going to idolise Saylor, given the balls he has on him to do what he’s done to MSTR, and he’s a compelling public speaker. But it has no impact on the running of Bitcoin.
-don’t disagree really on ordinals, but be warned that block space will become very scarce in time anyway. Plebs will be priced out from layer 1 over time - but it’s by design. Block space is wholly scarce within a fixed time period. Out of interest what would you consider doing to stop ordinals?
Re people chatting about price, I agree it’s annoying. Welcome to the bull market I guess.
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Out of interest what would you consider doing to stop ordinals?
Treat them like what they are: spam.
When you have spam, you try to mitigate the spam. My email provider is doing that all the time, and I'm very grateful that they do... That was what made millions of people abandon Hotmail (and others) to Google a few decades ago.
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The analogy doesn’t quite hold though, does it - spam has no significant cost to the sender. That was one of the main drivers for Adam Backs work in the first place around proof of work. Ordinals come at significant cost, which is already proving not to be worth it (hence back to 10sats per vbyte)
Playing devils advocate slightly - how about me posting a simple message via op return on the blockchain. Should that be outlawed?
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Yeah, well played, because I've used Samourai a few times and I like it...
But I think Bitcoin should be used for financial transactions only.
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @343pg 18 Mar
Yes and I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but given the situation I wouldn’t have expected Bitcoin to have at all reacted to ordinals yet. At the very least let’s see how it plays out over the next several years.
My view is that birthday message via op return may yet get a little pricey in dollar terms - let alone any kind of ordinals space needs. I think they will just be priced out. When you say financial transactions - that’s surely going to be the most efficient use of the block space data, right ? Billions transferred via the use of a hundred bytes? Hard to compete with those transactions.
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Yes. I guess that at least we should "undo" the segwit discount, so people trying to inscribe shit is not in advantage over people trying to transfer money...
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You have to chill dude, as bitcoin adoption grows there will be a lot of things you will not like, don't worry too much about bitcoin personalities, Saylor says what he has to say now, you think normies in the US would be cool with bitcoin if Saylor came on TV saying the USD will collapse and Bitcoin will replace it? He's not stupid, you can't even come with that talk to a friend to orange pill him otherwise he will just dismiss you as crazy. Baby steps, it's for saving only, number go up good, the other stuff will come later. As for Adam Back and others with price, don't take them too serious, they are having fun with the bull market, and price matters, no one wants to save in something that loses value. Many went through the whole bear market it's natural that people are now optimistic. As for ordinals don't worry they will fade out, but long term yes fees might be a problem and something should be done in the near future, but I don't think its possible to stop it know. As for sidechains and stuff they are tools, if it suits you good, otherwise don't use it, it does not interfere with bitcoin, I personally don't think it's a solution for scaling neither do I have any use for it. Same for drivechains. As for nostr, that doesn't even interferes with bitcoin, it integrates and brings many more to bitcoin, just chill, focus on what is important, bitcoin scaling solutions and code changes, everything else is noise, everyone has its own agenda, luckily mostly are still pro bitcoin because it's in everyone own interest, that is one of the major features, you don't need to listen or thrust anyone, ans everyone will act in a self interest for bitcoin to succeed.
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I think if you have more than half a million followers, you have to be careful, because people will follow your advice even if it's not advice. If you say so specific stuff like "$15,7M 2027", people will take it literally, because, you know, he's almost sure Satoshi, so...
But yeah, he can have fun as much as he want. He's free to do it, and he's not responsible for other people's losses.
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Yes I agree with that but people must take responsibility also by investing on the basis of a tweet, but it can still be good, hey I got into bitcoin thanks to Raoul Paul and PlanB S2F, imagine that, among a few other things, even if planB chart was wrong in future price prediction it allowed me to see the bitcoin chart since the beginning (zoom out) and gave me confidence to get into bitcoin and to fall into the rabbit hole. Many also buy at the top with FOMO and then get forged by the bear market. Greed is almost always the first motivation.
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people must take responsibility also by investing on the basis of a tweet
Yeah, of course, 100%.
I got into bitcoin thanks to Raoul Paul and PlanB S2F, imagine that
Wow... :)
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you sound like a big blocker
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Yes, that's exactly how I am.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @pajdo 17 Mar
Yes, that's exactly how I am.
If BCH represents your values, why are you concerned about Bitcoin? You already have, in your mind, a better, faster, cheaper alternative.
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No, man, it was just sarcasm.
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Ah, Liquid... that "solution to the scalability problem", as is eCash and Fedimint? If Cashu, Fedi and Liquid are "solutions to the scalability problem", I may not have really understood what Bitcoin is....
Here is the conundrum:
BTC can only have ~200M transactions per year. This is enough for say ~70M "active" users (3 txn per year per user).
What about the risk of a rival chain supplanting BTC and achieving a 50% world penetration? The world is replete with examples of "the best" solution losing out to a "good" solution if the right balance of features is achieved.
It seems to me that:
Main Chain <-> Federated Solutions <-> Centralized Solutions
Offers an acceptable spectrum of solutions if the users can move between those layers easily.
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I’m surprised by all the Blockstream hate
Strikes me as immature, another prominent trait among stackers
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All that Blockstream hate is in the room with us now?
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Yes and in other threads
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I haven't seen it, but if you have, that's ok.
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Look at threads about blockstream which has SN account.
Specifically green and aqua
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Green, that wallet that has been the last one to have coin selection? I wonder why people don't like it...
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Liquid is also about confidentiality and low fees
Not just scalability
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I've been using it to rebalance lightning channels for ridiculously low fees. I've turned into a liquid believer overnight
Yeah, I know...
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What about lightning and channel factories?
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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @rkfg 17 Mar
That potential "scaling chain" would have to battle the 20k+ shitcoins first before it gets to the throne. I wouldn't worry about it that much. Even in the misleading "bitcoin dominance" terms all thousands shitcoins combined are valued less than half of the total "crypto market cap". Any shitcoin is simply bitcoin's counterfeit inflation which we can easily detect and dismiss. The only effect of it is a temporary drop of bitcoin's purchase power which lets other people stack harder.
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So is the theory: Bitcoin is only for 1% of the world to use? Let the rest of the 99% find other shitchains to use?
I'm trying to understand how you see product-market fit....
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30 sats \ 1 reply \ @Atreus 17 Mar
I think speculating about fiat price projections is exceptionally cringe, so I mostly stay off Twitter. There are actually a few gems there, but every time I go I end up more annoyed than when I started.
There are some Bitcoiners I respect who are on there doing fiat price projections, Back being one of them. I honestly just chalk it up to being a form of public relations, and like PR, most of us aren't cut out for it. “Number Go Up” is an effective marketing tactic that brings more people into the network, but many of them will dive into crypto scams to “find the next Bitcoin.” They're also likely to lose whatever Bitcoin they acquire, so that's not great. It gets attention though 🤷 NgU is what got my attention in '17. It's very low bar stuff, but most marketing is.
Even so, I'm glad most of us here aren't into the NGU clown show.
The very same man that tries to sell you his hardware wallet "to improve your use of Bitcoin", that cannot be paid using Bitcoin. Man...
This is absolutely clown 🤡 all the way through. Imagine not talking btc for a btc wallet.
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Yeah, people that comes here mostly for the NgU will en up in other coins. I've tried to orange-pill people, and they have ended telling me "thank you for teaching me, I bought Solana and Ethereum, because they're cheaper than BTC".
So if you approach them from the NgU perspective, I think it's mostly impossible.
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Your instincts are right on ! We have few bitcoiners like you, with a straight vision.
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Thanks. Means a lot coming from you...
I hope I can find another way besides moving to the forests ;)
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Great rent, there is a lot of BS going on in the bitcoin space so I think it's good to point them up. I know that bitcoin doesn't care yada yada but those "celebs" are just full of s...Saylor's speech in Madera had a hilarious title: "Bitcoin is for everyone"! Sure it is...and meanwhile keeps indebting himself to buy it all and never to sell...
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Yeah it’s tough. Live the life you want. Self reflect and adjust!
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This is not a religion, so I suggest you be happy in losing your faith.
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that's a lot of words.... what's the TL;DR
bitcoin is just money, you either you use it, or you don't.
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Grandioso al igual que tu último post. Gracias por compartir tu punto de vista.
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Gracias a ti por responder.
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The only thing in your control is your own perspective. Being angry at the world won't change it.
Some people will have bad takes, some people will tell flat out lies. Some people will get a few things right. Just sit back and listen to everyone without judgement. You will find truth somewhere in the middle.
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I don't think the truth should be in the middle. Sometimes the truth is at one of the extremes. The truth is the truth, not something that we choose to not be called extremist...
But I agree with your first sentence.
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You're right. Some people do tell the truth as they know it. My point is that if you listen to enough people on the same topic there'll always be different opinions, sometimes contradictory. You need to decide for yourself which version is truth.
I've listened to a lot of Saylor interviews and one thing I've noticed is that he talks differently when he's being interviewed by mainstream media compared to a podcast.
I'm not saying he's lying but I do think timeframes and context matters. Sometimes he's talking about what he expects to happen from observations he's made. Sometimes he's talking about the short term outcomes and other times he's talking about long term outcomes. These are all very different.
For example, I would agree right now Bitcoin doesn't really compete with the dollar. Not to any substantial degree. This is an observation about the present. It doesn't mean it won't change in the future.
Secondly, he may not have shown his Bitcoin address but he has declared in public filings all the Bitcoin he's purchased. Could he be lying about this, sure, but if he gets caught he'll go to prison. I can't see any benefit for him to lie about this, especially since he spends so much of his time talking about Bitcoin.
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I share many of your frustrations. I do hold MSTR in a UK pension wrapper as I can't hold BTC directly in there. If I could, I would do that instead.
It does almost feel that we've lost our way a bit, with everything going on. You can add in the motivations of the Core developers switching from actually developing the product and fixing bugs etc. to appeasing the miners because they're the most important stakeholders. It's very dangerous.
We seem to have normalised shitcoining on Bitcoin whereas not all that long ago, it would have been strongly called out by the vast majority of prominent voices.
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Yeah, that too...
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I think Saylor is more correct than wrong.
Bitcoin is more than a currency and is fundermentally backed by "nothing" like fiat.
That is unless you see Bitcoin itself as the asset itself like gold. Meaning it doesn't need to be backed by anything.
Now as to why property, I would say it's easier to understand property. Digital asset is akin to collectibles in some sense.
But his largest argument why it isn't a competition to USD, is there's no need to call it one to have extra threats and frankly there's a bigger market. Same way Satoshi thought it was too early for Bitcoin to be used for Wikileaks.
Bitcoin once big enough will be much harder to stop. People will then find their use case of Bitcoin.
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100% agree. Hope this does not end like the early days of Linux.... which lead to Gates and Jobs taking over... Let´s have hope and forget the noise. We will continue fighting one way or the others while building and buiding!!! Let´s stay positive, and remembrer that you are not alone as we are a few still that will continue building and fighting for the real mission besides the ngu scammers and false prophets !!
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Thanks for your reply!
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Do you think it’s all or nothing for bitcoin to win (ie completely replace fiat and be the only money used. Governments are small or non-existent in comparison to today)?
I think the MSTR / ETFs etc are a deterministic step in bitcoins journey. As a non-permissioned network it was inevitable fiat products would come along.
Personally I think it’s better that a transition happens slowly as systems change and fiat investment instruments hopefully allow enough life boats for the world to gravitate towards a hard money standard.
I don’t think it’s realistic to believe everyone will hold their own keys and transact on base layer. Imo most important concept to protect is the optionality that a person can if desired. Having tradeoffs for spending with custodial lightning / Phoenix / Fedi / liquid seem like reasonable options that allow people to make tradeoffs.
Even if the end scenario is going to a bitcoin backed dollar I think this is infinitely better than where we are today. Main point being while it’s important to defend certain characteristics of bitcoin (21M / option to self custody) we shouldn’t let perfect become the enemy of good (or better)
Bitcoin was always going to scale via layers (with tradeoffs) and fees will increase greatly from 1 sat/vb in the future as adoption occurs
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If you add "tradeoffs" to Bitcoin, then it's not Bitcoin. When I hear something like that, I propose that we use PayPal as a scaling solution, because it's fast and works very well. It's not Bitcoin, sadly, but it works fine :)
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Tradeoffs are inevitable in nature. They're all around us. They are the reason for adaptability and evolution.
I find it cringy that big-blockers think everything can be accomplished at the base-layer with zero tradeoffs. Many of the tradeoffs they make, they seem unaware of.... and they won't be made aware until maybe years down the road with stress testing and large-scale attacks.
That's why it's so important to work in layers.... ensuring the base layer does one thing really super duper well, better than others. That matters more than anything.
Then, we can start working our way up, making some tradeoffs in order to gain something, knowing that we will lose some things, but always have the base layer to fall back on.
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I agree with you. But one thing is to have Lightning as a layer 2, and another is having Cashu, which is a new token generated in a new server. If the server falls down or is taken down, you lose the money.
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Everything in bitcoin is really a tradeoff. Hence why there is no single best custody method etc.
Also would be a tradeoff to increase blocksize for more L1 throughput which was the reason for the blocksize wars
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Spanish translation
It’s like living near the Mexican border
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For the pleasure of your eyes.
But it's not mexican spanish, sorry :)
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Bad joke, my apologies
I live in California and I am used to signs written in Spanish. I am very familiar with ESL or English as a second language.
After 30 years I am tired of hearing Spanish in USA. If you live in America, learn English. This is USA not Mexico or Central America or Latin America.
America needs to implement our own contemporary version of Spanish Inquisition
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First of all, great write up!
Now, to stay on topic, you're not the only one who thinks like this, most Bitcoiners do, specially older Bitcoiners (older in the sense that they have been longer), newbies usually follow narratives and the crowd, but they eventually stop.
What's happening today in Bitcoin is really strange to see, hard times are coming but that doesn't mean it's all over, more and more the contrarian thinking about this cult mentality that people have developed around Bitcoin is disappearing because everyone is seeing the cracks, Bitcoin is many things, but this wave of idiocy will also pass, and in the end Bitcoin will survive, just not the way anyone is expecting it to.
I think that the Saifedeanean discourse of "settlement layer and hard money" wont fly forever, because Bitcoin needs to, and will evolve, but it's up to you what you decide to believe of expect.
I think that Bitcoin will perform great for a long time, but that it will evolve into BCash technically (not the other way around), but in the meantime, just expect the ride to be fucking crazy, and to not get any more nuanced anytime soon.
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Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I think I need to separate myself from BitcoinTwitter...
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 17 Mar
Nice rant
Not to make excuses for anyone (especially the price predictions) but I think its just bitcoin going mainstream. The interesting projects and people within bitcoin will not be able to compete with the noise. You can still support it and try to ignore the rest.
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Oh FFS Sell your bitcoin and get it over with
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0 sats \ 3 replies \ @mf 17 Mar
You're giving people's actions far too much importance. People will be people and they'll do what they always do. Complaining about it, is complaining about human nature. All of it should be expected and more will come. Plus, most normies are just driven by fiat prices, so reminding them the potential big benefits of hopping on the bitcoin train is a great hook to fish them in. Any and all publicity is good for bitcoin. Bitcoin is anti-fragile, nothing can hurt it if you time preference is low enough.
Stack sats and you'll be happy.
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Thanks for your reply. But I think that if somebody comes to Bitcoin because "It's going to $5M", then put a lot of money in there, it goes down 80%, and they sell there, they'll never ever come to Bitcoin.
If you try to attract them telling them "it's better that you study it. Put a small amount, then add more as you understand what it is and how it works", you have wayyyy more probability of them staying.
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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @mf 17 Mar
Always remember there are (unfortunately) more stupid then smart people. Hopefully that trend will shift as time goes by and bitcoin permiates more and more. But until then, the majority will just do stupid things and will have to learn from their own stupidity. If they don't, then they're a lost cause. Unfortunate, but there's really nothing anyone can do about it. In other words, most people on the planet are just young children, still stumbling while trying to walk. There are not a lot of adults, and the ones that exist can only take care of a small minority of the kids. Take care of yourself, your family and friends. Close circles only. And don't put too much energy on those that really don't budge, or you will end up tired and angry at yourself for no good reason. The ones that actually follow your guidance will in turn help their circles. Slowly but surely, bitcoin will reach the outskirts.
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That seems like good advice... Thanks a lot, man!
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Excellent write up ✍️ thank you for taking the time to describe in detail all your points.
It's totally expected to have these examples when scaling any service globally
Personally I think of the army of node runners and miners continually updating the status quo, as the heartbeat of Bitcoin
Whales politicians celebrities will come and go and their ego must be satisfied
tolkeins rings, time travel, the arc of the covenant. anything that is desired will draw people to it
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Thanks.
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It's all going to be alright. 👌
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Here I have to give a warning that comes true 100% of the time: there are only 2 kinds of politicians, those who have already let you down, and those who soon will.
it is important to remember that the wealth hoarded by the rulers is not the wealth of the ruled. The wealth hoarded by the state is for the state, for its own benefit, and the people are not the state. Bukele will keep his bitcoin as long as he wants, and sell them at the drop of a hat when he deems it appropriate, and with that money he will do something good for the people, or not. It happens in every country in the world, and El Salvador will be no different. It reminds me of my fellow citizens when they say that public things "are theirs". No, my son, you only finance them, but they are theirs.
Exactly. Agreed.
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I just want the "it's the free market, if you pay the fees you're in" folks to think about what would happen if someone goes to the theater, pays for their ticket, walks in and takes a shit next to the screen. As he has paid his ticket and there is no written rule that forbids it (he is complying with the rules), is it his right to do it?
I don't understand this analogy.
What do you mean? Do you think exchanging fiat for Bitcoin was like buying a theater ticket? And the person shitting next to the screen is like the sats/vbyte going up?
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There is people that says that Ordinals are ok, because they're respecting the law and paying the fees. My analogy is a public place where you can do whatever you want if you follow the law.
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It is unreasonable for miners to spend huge amounts of energy to record the cost of a cup of coffee. Handling fees and energy costs eventually reach a balance, and the main chain eventually becomes the settlement layer. As the number of users expands, Bitcoin volatility gradually decreases, which is normal. If central banks start hoarding Bitcoin, prices will surge and level off. Everyone will not use Bitcoin overnight. Progress is slow but gradually penetrates into every level. Don't think that Bitcoiners can control everything outside of the program.
From the emergence of mobile phones to smart phones, the entire process was not designed from the beginning. The author of the QR code never thought that the QR code could be used as money. Don't worry, life will find a way.
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Well, we pay for coffee with Lightning, which is Bitcoin, so there is no point putting the miners and the energy costs here.
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activate CTV
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Yo creo que los etfs pueden ser una cosa buena por que podria asegurar que no bajase el bitcoin
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¿Cómo lo aseguran?
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Ah, Liquid... that "solution to the scalability problem", as is eCash and Fedimint? If Cashu, Fedi and Liquid are "solutions to the scalability problem", I may not have really understood what Bitcoin is.... Now it turns out that using "tokens" issued by a certain centralized entity, and which can only be exchanged for Bitcoin if that entity keeps a server running, is that an alternative?
Totally agree. They aren't and they shouldn't be the alternatives. But what can we do? As your title mentioned 'losing faith'. Yes, I am also in the same mood. Is it time when we accept them or stop finding the way out? If not then what we can do? It's been 15 years now and we haven't witnessed a real solution for scalability.
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Liquid swaps will dramatically drive down the cost of lightning channel management, and by extension, lightning fees.
No need to put your life savings on liquid, it will just be useful as a bit of infrastructure to keep things balanced.
I wonder how many people here are using custodial lightning? That's far more risky than using Liquid. A lot of people would have to collude to rug everyone.
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Besides that, you still have to pay fees to put the money into Liquid and then into Bitcoin again. You could as well put it into Lightning directly...
Yeah, I know you can move a bigger amount into Liquid first, but we don't want to put a lot of money there, right?
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Besides that, you still have to pay fees to put the money into Liquid and then into Bitcoin again.
You sure don't. Why would you swap back into L1 bitcoin? You keep liquid sats in the wallet for cheap submarine swaps to keep your channels balanced. The whole point is that you use L2 liquid to rebalance L2 lightning without paying expensive-ass L1 fees or fucking up your peers' channels with circular rebalances
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I lot of people would have to collude to rug my bank account, but you know... we're not into banking people :)
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I think in the end we'll make it, but it's going to take more time. Incentives aren't always aligned, and bitcoiners are not always using critical thinking while supporting some projects. We mostly follow what the influencers tell us to do, without even thinking if a specific project complies with the things that make Bitcoin such a revolution.
We need to remain vigilant about enterprise solutions and VC-funded ones, if they go contrary to what we think should be promoted/supported.
And very important: when you see something, say something. Don't let them propose something as an alternative if you think it's not an alternative, without denouncing it very loud and clear.
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I'm not following this, what do you guys know that i don't? Maybe i don't really know how bitcoin works... Any reading recommendations?
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About what, specifically?
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The scalability problem and what i should understand before it. I have theorical, not technical, knowledge about bitcoin. I'll come back to this thread and look up some keywords and maybe i'll answer my own questions :p Feel free to drop links though.
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Thanks for your valuable inputs. Ishall oblige sir.
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I'm confused, isn't lightning meant to be the scalability solution?
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Lightening is solution with limitations. Here it was about a large scale solution.
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I think I agree. However, up until recently, I felt like those limitations would get ironed out. I feel like the mood has changed in the last few months?
In terms of details, I believe opening channels was a limitation which could eventually be solved with channel factories. Another was initial inbound liquidity for new users which LSPs was meant to alleviate. Another was being online which watchtowers was meant to help with. What other limitations are there?
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You still have to be online to receive a payment...
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Yes that's true, was there something about trampoline payment relays? Duno how that worked out, I think eclair implemented it
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I don't know that one. I know the "hodl invoices" (or whatever is called) implemented by Zeus, but other actors like Mutiny said that "it's not good for the ecosystem" or something :)
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Yep I think that locks of liquidity
Thanks for your contribution. Don't fret, we agorists exist and know who's the real enemy. Some of us are able to defund them more than others and vice versa, we just gotta be doing what we can. Keep spreading the word!
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We exists, but we need to remain vigilant and expose falsehoods when we see them.
By the way, nice underpants, if that's you.
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Estoy de acuerdo contigo @btc_remnant
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Fair points. I'm happy to have increasingly less horrible spokespeople. Remember when McAfee was Bitcoin's (more shit coins, but still) most famous supporter? We've moved on to more trust worthy and competent voices every few years
Si tienes razon @btc_remnant con lo de las fees incluso se podria llegar a pensar que los nuevos 1sat/vbyte sean 20 ,30 o mas
I'm going to add some comments on some quotes on your text, but this is some notes on the edge, I'm almost 100% on board with your writing.
By the way, when Bukele published the address where El Salvador's bitcoins are supposedly located, several bitcoiners started donating money to those addresses. See what I mean? Bitcoins donated to a repressive machine as by definition a state is? "But nobody tells us bitcoiners what we can do with our money!". Right, of course...
Indeed, the goverment depositant should just sign a message for that address.
And by the way, why do we let people who have obvious interests in L2s and sidechains tell us that Bitcoin is fine as it is, and that nothing can be done against Ordinals, and that we'd better suck it up and use Liquid? Ah, Liquid... that "solution to the scalability problem", as is eCash and Fedimint? If Cashu, Fedi and Liquid are "solutions to the scalability problem", I may not have really understood what Bitcoin is.... Now it turns out that using "tokens" issued by a certain centralized entity, and which can only be exchanged for Bitcoin if that entity keeps a server running, is that an alternative? And why don't we directly use Monero or BCH as a "scalability solution"? I really, really don't get it. I must have missed something...
About this, I think a rephrasal is a clearer way to state what I think you try to state: is that the tradeoff about confidence (i.e. relying on a third entity) is not optimal or you just don't like it.
Liquid, Fedimient and so on still -are- solutions to the scalability problem (you state it conditionally I don't think a conditional applies)
On the next quote:
An "open system" to fight censorship promoted by the man who censored the president of the USA and many scientists during the plandemy. The very same man that tries to sell you his hardware wallet "to improve your use of Bitcoin", that cannot be paid using Bitcoin. Man...
Nostr is a protocol, it doesn't matter that Jack or whoever promotes it. He is still working on the blue whatever so IMO is playing a double faced game. But really, nostr is a beacon of hope for communitations as much as bitcoin is for money.
Despite its current community (which do not truly grasp the point of a protocol) despite the current content, that protocol is a huge huge win.
totally agree, and you have not even touched on the privacy problem and the world of full surveillance which can follow because of that, nor that using lightning in a non custodial way is a pain in the ass. Maybe its time to dump on wallstreet in this cycle and put the money in something else...
stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.