For background, he was ordered to pay a penalty of some $300+ million because he overstated the worth of his real estate on loan applications. But my understanding is that none of his creditors actually lost money on these loans and that they did their due diligence on the loan applications. The perspective of most conservative media is that this was a political hit job on a victimless crime where no one was complaining, and that it'll have a chilling effect on real estate development because all developers overstate their property values in a similar way.
I have to admit though, all my news sources are right-leaning or center-right, so I don't know if I have the full picture. But from the sound of it, it seems like a transparently motivated by anti-Trumpism and that there wasn't really a victim to this supposed crime.
One more thing. Here's the NY civil fraud statute:
New York Civil Common Law Fraudulent Misrepresentation
Here, there were no damages and no victim, as @Undisciplined pointed out.
Weird that so much attention is given to a victimless incident that isn't a crime? He must be stopped to save democracy!
Lol
Key word is victimless.
Shoplifting is often described by the left as victimless.
This should be like the usfl vs nfl antitrust case in 1986. Jury award was 3 dollars in punitive damages. USFL won the case but received no damages ie 3 dollars
I heard the 3 dollar check was never cashed
Who is the plaintiff? The lender? The state of New York?
I believe it’s the state of New York.
Why is NY entitled to damages if it did not loan money to or transact with Trump?
This is a good summary of the ruling
https://reason.com/2024/02/19/how-a-judge-arrived-at-a-staggering-disgorgement-order-against-trump/
I wasn't aware of this statute. It will be interesting if this withstands appellate review. It seems like the perfect vehicle for selective enforcement. I would like to know how often it's been used.
https://casetext.com/statute/consolidated-laws-of-new-york/chapter-executive/article-5-department-of-law/section-63-general-duties/analysis?citingPage=1&sort=relevance&sortCiting=date-descending
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/nyregion/donald-trump-letitia-james-lawsuit.html
Provides some recent history of NY AG using this statute.
One was against Trump university
Law was passed in 1956.
I can’t find any information about why it was passed.
NY sued Exxon for climate change under this statute.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Exxon_Mobil
There is also a question about statute of limitations
Deutsche Bank did their own research and due diligence.
They do this for every loan applicant.
Did NY rely upon Trump’s fraudulent misrepresentation?
Trump did not apply for a loan from the state. DB is not a state agency.
States will often sue doctors for Medicare or Medicaid fraud. This is not the case here
The judge disagreed with that. How does your opinion differ from the courts?
Engoron’s conclusion that “fraud” under Executive Law 63(12) doesn’t require reasonable reliance is unsupported by any applicable case citation or extended reasoning. It was invented by him solely for this case, and will never be followed by any court again. That’s why Governor Hochul is scrambling around to assure businesses that Trump will be the statute’s only and last target using that silly interpretation.
"The attorney general's job is to protect people who can't protect themselves," Syracuse University law professor Gregory Germain said. "Here, we're dealing with very sophisticated lenders who are fully capable of protecting themselves and haven't asked the attorney general for help."
"I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?"
The Deutsche unit making the Trump business loans wasn’t the typical lending unit, but its private wealth division. That group often lends to rich clients not only to earn interest but to help its chances of winning the lucrative business of managing their vast personal investments and getting them to buy other bank services — something that testimony showed Deutsche was clearly hoping to do with the ex-president.
From AP News
https://clsbluesky.law.columbia.edu/2023/11/21/john-c-coffee-jr-the-trump-civil-trial-has-anyone-looked-at-the-statute/?amp=1
Lost interest payment based on loan amount and interest rate adjustment
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4287509-trump-orgs-false-financial-statements-cost-banks-168m-in-interest-ny-ag-financial-expert/
There is a PDF file in the hill article
My understanding is very similar to yours, but I acknowledge the same possible blind spots.
If I'm going to believe he committed fraud, I need to see someone actually claim to have been damaged and then prove that damage came from Trump's deception. I've seen nothing like that.
I also understand that this did not go to trial, but was rather a summary judgement. That strikes me as quite a miscarriage of justice.
Maybe our resident NY attorney will enlighten us.
(I feel like I need a Siggy Signal for occasions like this)
@ek can you make me a Siggy Signal that summons @siggy47 in a cooler way than just tagging him?
A couple of things. First of all, it's not criminal. It is a civil case. Second, the judge granted summary judgment, before any witnesses were called. What he basically ruled was that there were no triable issues of fact. Summary judgment denies a litigant their day in court, so should only be granted in extreme cases. Applying it here seems ridiculous to me.
Also, I have been involved in commercial real estate financing in NY and other states. I have literally had bank representatives offer to play with the values of property to get larger loans. The banker would then get a larger commission. This is the way real estate financing works. It is a political ruling. Complete bullshit, IMO. For the record, I don't like Donald Trump.
So, appealing the decision is the only recourse, right?
But, I heard something about Trump being required to put up 10% of the judgement before he can move forward with an appeal. That seems preposterous, unless I badly misunderstood what I overheard.
I'm guessing that it will be very difficult to actually seize his buildings as they've threatened to do.
I haven't looked into that, but he probably can post a bond or undertaking.
I just remembered something else. In law school we used to use the old basketball phrase "no harm, no foul" in the context of civil damages. The liability wasn't enough. You needed to prove damages. There were none here. These cases are typically brought only after a borrower defaults on a loan. Then you have damages.
I think they were saying the bond would have to be for 10%. If so, that's a crazy tool for a tyrant to be able to wield. They can make an egregiously unjust ruling and set the penalty so high that you can't even afford to appeal.
Where do you think this is going? Not the Trump element specifically, but this kind of weaponized politically motivated prosecution.
Oh, it will be tit for tat, just like how everyone gets impeached now. The NY Post had an interesting take. The democrats have just made Trump a martyr, endearing him to people who disliked him previously. This might be an enormous political error.
Where are all the frivolous charges and suits against Democrats, then?
Most states have Republican administrations and those DA's don't seem inclined to follow the Democrats' lead. They don't even seem inclined to prosecute cases of real wrongdoing. Maybe that will change, but for now I'd say the situation is extremely asymmetrical.
Btw, like you, I'm no fan of Trump in particular or Republicans in general.
I think Biden will be arrested or charged civilly for something once he's out of office, if he lives that long.
Jonathan Turley made the same exact point.
400 million or a bond
The state and the judge used the assessment value of his Mar lago estate. 18 million vs market value which is at least 400 million.
The attorney general and judge do not understand how assessment works
I think they do...and that's worse.
Rule of law is about the law not the person or his politics.
Why do we have public defenders? If you look at most felons you should hate them
Why do we have due process?
Executive law 63-12 precludes trial by jury because it’s about disgorgement not damages
Mhh, maybe tagging him and editing it out before he sees it? You might get a confused reply in that case though.
edit: oh, no, I was too slow with editing haha
update: Another cool signal would be to zap siggy the item number. Might get expensive though.
If there are materially false statements on a loan application, that is fraud. I have not seen the loan application. I don't trust courts to properly evaluate laws or documents. I expect courts to hold Trump to a different standard than Biden. I feel safe assuming what has happened here. I doubt New York development elites would survive this standard being held statewide.
Even IF it is material, does the punishment fit the crime?
it's almost like they're aching for him to be president again
Good point. There's no way there's $300million of damages. As #434318 Siggy said below, there's no victim at all, and the state requires it by law. The more facts I learn, the more unruly the court seems to be.
well.....the injured party would need bring the case.
I don't think I've every heard of a case where the state files a civil suit against someone with no plaintiff claiming they were injured. I mean Deutschebank was called to testify and basically testified on behalf of Trump. Saying they willingly entered into the loan contract and were paid-in-full....
Forget Trump, but this precedent should be extremely worrying to all businesses in NYC.
The US judicial system has spoken. Facts and court decisions are the best system I’ve seen work globally though not perfect. Though, I’m confused on how you can be impeached twice, convicted of rape, and still run for president? I’m aware of all the items on the Biden side as well. Was hoping for some fresh leadership, but not as long as the political pockets are lined with cash for a few families of puppets…
“He engaged in this massive amount of fraud. It wasn’t just a simple mistake, a slight oversight, the variations are wildly exaggerated, and the extent of the fraud was staggering,” she argued. She then raised a hypothetical situation, saying, “If average New Yorkers went into a bank and submitted false documents, the government would throw the book at them, and the same should be true for former presidents.”
You hit the nail on the head. Don't worry, you aren't missing anything.
A question I do have is, who is the plaintiff? Was it the city or state of New York?
NY says they lost tax dollars
State of New York but the Attorney General insists they are looking out for the lenders interest
I think this is the ruling. There's not much mention of victims or damages, but there is a lot of "falsifying business records" in there including the CEO Allen Weissberg who's currently serving time right now.
I guess you can say the tax authorities might have been a victim once or twice, but that should have no impact in a civil fraud case about getting loans.
I haven’t paid much attention to it but I do think the amount of lawfare that goes on is ridiculous. And this is further proof of how unhinged lawyers have become!
The judge is most unhinged. Lawyers can be unhinged but judges can restrain them
I think it is bonkers and clearly political. Just look at the statement made by the the Governor of NY, Kathy Hochul, reassuring businesses that they need not worry. Like, what on earth? What is she actually saying?
Facts on the ground are that it does pose a real risk to businesses, most of whom are “guilty“ of the crime that Trump has committed. So right now they are having meetings as to whether they pull the plug on New York or not. Sprinkle in a little bit of bloody minded politics and I imagine we will see them leaving New York.
Actually, maybe this is the catalyst for some kind of American renaissance?
Why anyone would want to do business in NY before this case is beyond me.
It’s surprising that Trump insists on doing business in New York State
Well, he built a skyscraper there, overlooking central park. Kinda hard to just stop doing biz there now.
A judge has banned him from doing business in NY for 3 years
To be specific about what he's being accused of in this instance:
Properties like this were used as the basis for loans that were overvalued for what they were worth. He should not have gotten that money based on that criteria.
counterpoint:
source:
https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689
From your AP link:
And though the bank offered Trump lower interest rates because he had agreed to personally guarantee the loans with his own money, it’s not clear how much better the rates were because of the inflated figures. The bank never complained, and it’s unclear how much it lost, if anything. Bank officials called to testify couldn’t say for sure if Trump’s personal statement of worth had any impact on the rates.
Because this was a civil case the state would only target rich people
It’s a loan application. Lenders can reject your application
An interesting question to ask is why a foreign bank would choose not to reject an obviously fraudulent application for funds by a former president.
If you or I would get in trouble for lying like this on forms, why should the president be exempt?
DB is a German based bank that has a NY charter.
It’s not German collusion
All lenders check the value of your assets. It’s called due diligence.
Have you ever applied for a mortgage or line of credit?
No one would get in trouble unless the bank suffers damages.
The bank would reject your application if they didn’t think you could pay back a loan
I don't. Didn't know it happened. Does not affect my life.
True but does anything on the news affect your life unless it happens in your neighborhood.
I get following it. Don't get me wrong. I just don't care about Trump and even less about those obsessed with hating him.
It's just the latest thing they could stick to Trump. Does anyone remember say, Whitewater? Hell no. Hardly anyone mentions it, and there was a bucket load of wrong there. You could ask Vince Foster, but oops. He suicided!
Of course we remember whitewater and the subsequent shenanigans
I'm sure you do. "We" does not.
“…all developers overstate their property values in a similar way.”
Really? Do they really? Seriously? I’m genuinely curious but my gut tells this is not correct.
Ask any commercial loan officer
Actually i know a guy. Ill ask him.
2 years ago my agent and I had a disagreement with a lender appraisal about how much rent my townhouse could generate. I can tell you in hindsight the lender appraisal was too low.
Different situation but more evidence that appraisal of market value is subjective
I imagine you and your agent at least can agree on the number of floors & rooms in the townhouse. Not even this basic info is something Trump can agree to.
To put this into a fair comparison to what Trump did, this would be like you stating your 4 bed 5 bath townhouse is actually a 16 bed 20 bath, while IRL it has 0 beds and 0 baths because it has not actually been built yet and is still under construction- but you are telling the lender that it is actively being rented out and you are pulling an income.
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2024/attorney-general-james-wins-landmark-victory-case-against-donald-trump
A link to 92 page judgement
168 million interest saved fraudulently
126 million in ill gotten gains from sale of Old Post Office
From 2011 to 2021 Trump fraudulently overvalued Mar Lago
…
Above are actual statements written by judge Engoron
The damages are based on selective witnesses
Judge also says stark difference in appraisals is evidence of deceit
How is NY the injured party? Why does NY collect all the damages? NY did not loan money or purchase Old Post Office property.
NY claims disgorgement of ill gotten gains not damages
They claim insurance fraud, in part.
Did you read the opinion yet??
Your comparison is unfair because it’s completely fabricated.
NY case is based on discrepancies in appraised value, which are subjective
It’s a loan application which any lender can reject.
NY is saying the banks have been damaged but we are keeping the damages.
How much is Mar lago worth?
Trump purchased the land in 1985 for 5 million dollars.
I wouldn’t call apprised value subjective… but to your point, it’s more of a settled negotiation versus an objective science.
Still… being caught knowingly lying during the process and attempting to hide these attempts toe the line of fraud. There are plenty of cases of wrongdoing thru this process by the Defendant. They can’t be excused with “it’s commonly done in the business” anymore than the homeless who literally poop on the street can excuse it by pointing to the next bum.
If only NY prosecuted the homeless for public defecation
NY would never seek damages from a homeless person. It would be a criminal case.
A lender can reject an application if there is an impasse over collateral valuation.
No one was coerced to approve Trump loan application.
This is what I was thinking… if you look into the details of the case, there’s plenty of bad behavior..
Also saying that it’s common practice doesn’t excuse it. Like seriously.
It’s a voluntary agreement between two private parties.
No one has claimed to be a victim except NY attorney general.
A loan application is a starting point for negotiations between borrower and lender. As someone mentioned earlier the loan was paid back with interest. The bank can claim damages if loan default
I understand and agree.
There must be some additional details.
Usually I read these court opinions once all is said and done. I’ll have to find the PDF…
They mark it up as much as trump did?
It’s a negotiation, appraisals are subjective, lenders tend to low ball
Should borrowers who default on student loans be sued?
Isn’t student loan forgiveness a conspiracy to commit fraud?
Clearly people in power misusing the law to crush political opponents. For exemple, look at what's happening to the anti immigration vdare foundation, also in the US.
Southern Poverty Law Center gets preferential treatment
The odds of finding a single skyscraper in all of NYC that isn't greatly overstating it's value are astronomical, if not impossible. The real estate industry there has it's own set of standards.
This was exactly like what they did to Mar a Lago. Democrats have found a way to penalize Trump, alone, for something that everyone does in his industry.
Don't worry though, he's absolutely going to win in november and those stupid judges will be a a real shitstorm then.
Nonetheless, Trump remains the 'Trump Card' to save US democracy.
https://m.stacker.news/17527
https://m.stacker.news/17100
Letitia James is dumb as a post
view on x.comI think it's nothing we should be concerned about.
Trump has all the resources for an appeal if needed.
At some point this becomes more of a celebrity drama more than anything else.
Regardless if he's guilty or not, the optics on this aren't good.
I'm pretty much convinced at this point the Democrats want Trump to win again. A deeply divided nation works to their advantage.
Thanks for posting this. I was going to post something similar.
The lefty users are remarkably quiet. I expected more Trump derangement syndrome