Have We Ever Seen Real Communism or is What We Call Communism Really Socialism?
789 sats \ 9 comments \ @kepford 7 Feb econ
Granted, people argue about definitions of words. No one person or group is in control of language but for many years I have been fascinated with the history of the fall of the U.S.S.R. Over the years I have heard this common thread from the leaders of the U.S.S.R.... Actually existing socialism. I have heard that this is something Stalin and many of his comrades said.
In 1961 Nikita Khrushchev, the Secretary of the Communist Party said,
The Soviet people have constructed Socialism. They have completed great changes and opened wide the way to Communism.
~ Pandora's Box - Part 1: "The Engineer's Plot"
It seems to me that the Communists described their economic system as socialism and were perpetrating the idea that they still had not reached true Communism. I always think of this when I speak to a socialist or someone that says we've never seen real Communism. Sometimes I think they are right. We haven't really seen it because it is impossible. But it seems to me you can't have it both ways. You can't say the U.S.S.R. wasn't real socialism when clearly it was. And we have other examples.
To me the most clear definition of a socialist economy is one where the means of production are controlled by the state or more naively put, the "public". In a socialist society there are no capitalists. There are no stock markets. Now, there are blurred lines like states that impose vast wealth stealing programs in the name of equality but those are just a part of a socialist plan for an economy.
When I think about Communism I think more about a political system where there is one party that controls the people and the economy. A planned economy like in a socialist economy but where there is only one party. My conclusion is that there has never really been a socialist economy that wasn't also communist. I could be wrong and if you know of any I'd love to hear about them.
Bottom line. Both systems are evil and lead to mass death. Even if the people determining what is produced and how much is produced were good people. Even if they were the most moral and smart people it would fail. Without the free market price system there is no way they could know how much to produce. I suspect we better get ready to explain the deep issues with central planning to a whole new generation as people have been impressed with the latest evolution in AI.
What do you think?
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110 sats \ 5 replies \ @shado_op 7 Feb
The reason socialists and the left say there has never been "real" socialism/communism is because they full well know the evils perpetrated in the name of this philosophy in the USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea etc. So, the narrative exists that these places were/are not really communist/socialist. Thus, the fairy tale continues. It is of course, absurd. It's like saying the USA was never really a capitalist country, so "true" capitalism has never existed!! Many of us fall for this nonsense at some time or other, but most eventually realise this is a fake argument, because nothing can ever be perfect, and move on.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @oliverweiss 8 Feb
💯
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25 sats \ 2 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Feb
What I have observed of individuals drawn to socialism are two things.
  1. Some seem to have genuine desire to see humans prosper and avoid suffering. They are naive and maybe a bit self-righteous in their position seeing those that oppose their solutions as greedy.
  2. Most seem to be driven by envy. Greed is no respecter of wealth. You can be poor or rich and greedy.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @shado_op 7 Feb
Fair point, and probably this distinction between those who are genuine but naive; and those who are basically control freaks, applies to most politics/religions..
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25 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Feb
Yeah, it probably does apply broadly.
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25 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Feb
To me the rational response to "true" capitalism and "true" socialism is that its a spectrum. The more economic freedom, the more prosperity. This is pretty evident from observation of the two systems when you view it through this lens. However there are also cultural (morals, work ethic, etc) that also come into play and distort results. Some welfare programs may work better here or there. Some free markets may work better here or there due to cultural norms. But over time in my view socialism is a corrupting force and will lead to death and destruction.
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36 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford OP 7 Feb
The same flaw of hubris seen in socialist politicians we see in pretty much all politicians. The primary difference is in scale. The truth is, we don't need central planners or politicians. They are leaches on society at best, and at worst despots leading us to hell. The most anti-communists during the cold war still believed in central planning. You can see it in the US and the UK. Its actually laughable to listen to them. The west has prospered so much due to more free market activity in spite of central planning. That's the most logical explanation I have heard at least.
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36 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford OP 7 Feb
I really cringe every time I say or type AI. It feeds into a false idea that there is an intelligence in a machine. It feeds into an idea that we can just automate things. These machines are great at doing things when they have perfect information in a closed system. When we start hearing about using them to plan economies and society look out. This has been tried before. Yes, computing power has massively increase and there is more information but I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of the complexity that exists in nature and the minds of people. I believe it is folly to trust in these machines. We should use them but remain humble about their abilities and careful not to put our trust in engineers. This has happened before and it did not end well for the Russian people.
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10 sats \ 0 replies \ @shado_op 7 Feb
Completely agree. There is no intelligence, its just a big database with some pretty clever programming. Impressive for what it is, but nothing more...
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