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280 sats \ 19 replies \ @windward 15 Jan \ parent \ on: On Lincoln history
One that the Confederates started, and were proud to start, whose underpinnings were in motion before Lincoln was ever president. It's simply not something a singular individual could have changed the course of with any one act - and it again would require the Confederates to not escalate tensions (which is something they did not want to do).
Why would you recognize the independence of an organization who steals your property & holds your people in slavery? And mind - the confederacy refused negotiations - acknowledging independence would also be denying their own national sovereignty - not something I see a statist doing. If the Confederates did not open fire, and participated in discussions, maybe things would have been different. Avoiding conflict simply wasn't something that the CSA wanted.
This ignores why the Confederates fought the war - which was to have the right to run a slave society, have that power recognized even in places that did not want it, and have the power of the state to keep it going as long as possible.
Why would you recognize the independence of an organization who steals your property & holds your people in slavery?
I didn't say Lincoln should have done that. I'm countering your claim that there was only one way to avoid war. However, the answer to that question is "to avoid one of the worst wars in human history".
and have the power of the state to keep it going as long as possible.
That's a totally fair point. There's no shortage of evil regimes continuing evil practices even when they make no economic sense. Perhaps that would have gone on for a long time in this counterfactual.
I'm just not as convinced the CSA wanted a military conflict with the USA as you are. I'm also not as convinced as you that Lincoln was just a powerless bystander. I see both governments as pretty bad actors pursuing fundamentally illiberal goals.
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I'm just not as convinced the CSA wanted a military conflict with the USA as you are
You would be if you read what Confederates said about their situation:
From the Cornerstone Speech:
The process of disintegration in the old Union may be expected to go on with almost absolute certainty if we pursue the right course. We are now the nucleus of a growing power which, if we are true to ourselves, our destiny, and high mission, will become the controlling power on this continent. .... The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew." Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
Wanting to be the controlling power on the continent by an illiberal state implies violence.
At this time, Fort Sumpter is already under blockade. The Confederates would shoot first, literally 2 weeks after the speech is given. This is after they were offered compensation & legal protection and 7 of the 11 total states that made the CSA had already seceded.
To argue that the CSA didn't want conflict is to ignore their own actions, and their written and publicly documented thoughts at the time.
I'm also not as convinced as you that Lincoln was just a powerless bystander.
Also not a thing I said. He simply would not have been able to prevent the outbreak of war, solely because the CSA did not have a real interest in negotiating. They planned to secede before he ever took office as president, and he actively supported measures to stave off conflict as a Congressman.
To say that he singlehandedly could have done anything to change the outcome ignores the many future Confederates who did want that outcome and were actively preparing for it. One cannot avoid conflict while tied to another who actively seeks it.
I see both governments as pretty bad actors pursuing fundamentally illiberal goals.
saying that both governments are bad actors doesn't change the fact that saying 'Lincoln started the civil war' or 'Lincoln is responsible for the conflict' is on multiple levels, factually wrong and requires you to ignore history on both sides of the conflict.