Is Breez subsidizing channel opennings? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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3715 sats \ 20 comments \ @designsats 17 Dec 2023 bitcoin

Saw this. Screenshot of Blockstream Green wallet. Openning a 10k sat channel for 2500 fee, NOW?! Im weirded out by it, real channel must cost like 10x that with current fees. Are they eating this cost or the channel isnt actually open?

Best answer helping me understand how Breez SDK / Greenlight works will get 5k sats. Do they pay the onchain fee for user or am I completely clueless of how this works. Cos they claim its non-custodial.

https://primal.b-cdn.net/media-cache?s=o&a=1&u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.primal.net%2FHUDl.jpg

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5021 sats \ 7 replies \ @Book_It 17 Dec 2023

I am pretty sure most these services are batch opening channels to there own main nodes. It makes it so if 100 people open private channels at 2500+ each they will cover majority of the channels needed. Now in a high fee environment they probably have to eat the fees/ I also have seen breez charge additional fees to increase or send more to your wallet. I wanted to send 100k agian and I was charged 10k for the channel increase after the initial 2.5k setup fee.

21 sats \ 5 replies \ @designsats OP 17 Dec 2023

that was my initial thought too, that they are batching. I would like to confirm or deny but Green just wont show txid

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @Book_It 17 Dec 2023

Well in breez you can use dev options to see your channels and stuff. Pretty sure you can see on chain stuff too.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @designsats OP 17 Dec 2023

yea Im not using that :/ If someone can check it, any recent channel opens were batched or not. But still, 2500 sats doesnt cover it, not even batched.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Book_It 17 Dec 2023

Breex fees are dynamic and based on fee environment. it will range from .5% to 2%.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats OP 18 Dec 2023

hmmm, ok so its just Green. They subsidize it then

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats OP 18 Dec 2023

hmmm, ok so its just Green. They subsidize it then

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats OP 18 Dec 2023

zappity zap. Thx

121 sats \ 3 replies \ @petertodd 17 Dec 2023

The transaction doesn't actually need to confirm for the channel to be usable. So they may just be low balling fees and accepting that the channel txs might not confirm any time soon.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @rblb 17 Dec 2023

Can you explain a bit more what you mean with that? How can a channel be usable if the transaction is not included in the blockchain? What are the risks in doing so?

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @petertodd 18 Dec 2023

Because you, the receiver of the channel, can't double spend it. So Breeze/Phoenix/whatever have no risk in accepting LN payments to and from that channel.

Of course, you have a risk that the channel provider will double spend the transaction. But that's a low risk that people are willing to accept. Particularly when you're likely trusting their software anyway.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats OP 17 Dec 2023

What if they never get in block for that price?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @sidshattuck 17 Dec 2023

They are likely batching. Slightly different commercial model where they have a fixed and percentage based fee for both opens and closes. It seems they are taking a strategic approach that smooths out the fee spikes.

https://m.stacker.news/8435

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats OP 17 Dec 2023

strategically losing money :D How will they close 10k channel? :D

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 17 Dec 2023

Did you open it?

I don't believe

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @designsats OP 17 Dec 2023

Someone else oppened 10k. I openned much bigger for 4k fee....well "openned"

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @BitByBit21 17 Dec 2023

Not sure about Breez but Green is 2,500 sats to open channels up to 600k or so, which is fair IMO as long as you open channels big enough.

7 sats \ 2 replies \ @designsats OP 17 Dec 2023

They use Breez SDK so its the same question. How is it possible to open 10k channel for 2500 sats? Screenshot is from Green