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0 sats \ 9 replies \ @0330830bf9 17 Nov 2023 \ on: Frightening Network bitcoin
It would be interesting to see a different spin on the Lightning network that has no interest in being compatible, ideally something with a web native transport like nostr.
Giving Blockstream a say in the spec of the current network has been the source of most of its problems, which they keep trying to make worse.
there is a version of the frightening network here that uses nostr for message transport
but it sucks
nostr relays typically rate limit you to about 6 messages per 5 minute period
but on the frightening network you send your peer about 12 messages interactively, all within a few seconds, in order to do a state update
so nostr rate limits me and then there's a force close because your counterparty seems like he stopped responding mid-state-update
nostr seems to suck for this purpose
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nostr is just json over websockets, so it sounds like relays are using it wrong should do cooler stuff like this.
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it is true that's all nostr is (well, mostly...it also does some data caching), but there is a saying I try to keep to heart:
if you offer something free, people will take it
nostr relays cannot offer free bandwidth and storage forever because (1) those things cost money, which is a scarce resource (2) bots will consume all of the free bandwidth and storage you offer, and by extension they will consume all of the money it costs you to provide those things for free, until you run out of money, at which point you must cease operations
in order to survive and escape/avoid that doom loop, relay operators must ensure that their income exceeds the aggregate costs of bot activity on their relays
rate limits are one way to help with that. They help keep aggregate costs low and predictable
so by having them, "free relays" aren't "using it wrong," they are managing their costs, which is a precondition for sustainably offering a service for free. No service with unbounded costs and unreliable income can survive long, therefore rate limits are a survival mechanism
but it has consequences: stuff that needs to go beyond the standard rate limits (like the frightening network) cannot rely on free relays
users would need to register with a paid relay, and that sucks...or at least it feels like it right now. I have a feeling though that paid relays are actually a good thing, and are the very thing that will ensure nostr's success in the long term
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I think a lot of value will be unlocked in the world when the norm of 'everything on the internet is free' dies.
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There's no such thing as free infrastructure is true of nostr or otherwise, a nostr native solution is a 10x cost and friction reduction compared to current LN where a few sats to a relay vs. several dollars for a web-server or custodian. More problematically, the network friction is causing untold numbers to not use Lightning at all.
What are most of its problems, and how is Blockstream trying to make it worse?
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The overall lack of web-ness necessitating the slow and fragile p2p network. CLN couldn't even be arsed with REST. Now the Bolt12 psyop doubles down on that while mints stand to benefit.
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