Optimal Zapping on Stacker News \ stacker news ~meta

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11.3k sats \ 107 comments \ @Undisciplined 18 Oct 2023 meta

This topic seems to interest me more than most people, but we're seeing an fascinating example of price formation with the amounts people are zapping each other. When I started using Stacker News, it was very common to see 1 sat tips. That's now rare and has been replaced by much higher default amounts (often 21 for its symbolic value).

I noticed that I was consistently earning more sats than I was spending, so I raised my default zap by an order of magnitude. The result? I just made more sats for being one of the top zappers every day. Obviously, there are some bounds on this feedback loop.

I decided to try a new experiment where every day I set my default zap at a fixed proportion of what's in my SN wallet. This should allow me to eventually settle in near an equilibrium around my optimal zap amount.

I suspect that most of you are still zapping less than is even in your own best interest. It's time to raise those default values again.

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1915 sats \ 10 replies \ @siggy47 18 Oct 2023

"You have to give sats to get sats". You're right. I have told new SN members this. Many others have too. The guide and FAQ describe the reward system. I think it's still counterintuitive to many people. They should experiment to see it for themselves. There is an understandable tendency to hoard your stack that should be overcome.

1739 sats \ 7 replies \ @ek 18 Oct 2023

I think it's still counterintuitive to many people

i think we just got used to not paying for stuff at all. not even 1 sat.

like 0 interest rates gave companies bad (spending) habits

companies which made us the product gave us bad habits, too

367 sats \ 4 replies \ @siggy47 18 Oct 2023

Very true. I have to admit that my first real exposure to value for value was fountain. My instinct was to hoard my sats, and I was uncomfortable paying for an episode, no matter how much I got out of it.

815 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 18 Oct 2023

I feel that. But at some point, I realized: Why do I care so much about pocket change?

So I just calculated the value of my sats in fiat terms (yes, i know but it is how it is) and then decided how much i would like / wouldn't care at all to listen to good stuff for 60 minutes (since it's sats / minute on Fountain iirc). Basically like an upper bound since I probably won't listen to podcasts for 3+ hours per day.

I also love that Darknet Diaries is on Fountain. And since it's not even a bitcoin podcast, I especially want to support it!

43 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

That's still how I behave on Fountain, but I'm trying to be better.

121 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 18 Oct 2023

Just start with 1 sat payments :)

14 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

I have it set at 4 sats/minute. Fortunately, most of the podcasts I listen to haven't set up their wallets yet.

630 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 19 Oct 2023

It's true. The defaults are so powerful, and free is one of the most powerful default settings.

It's funny, one of the things that I think about is wanting to preserve my budget -- to stay solvent. Which is a weird thing to want, since what amounts to quite a hefty zap, like 1000 sats, is not yet thirty cents. And yet there's a scarcity mindset, even when the thing itself is not scarce.

Will be really interesting to see how norms evolve over time. @Undisciplined has set in motion a very intriguing psychological experiment with this post.

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

I hope so. It's certainly very intriguing to me.

321 sats \ 1 reply \ @amaluenda 18 Oct 2023

Gonna try this. Thanks!

121 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 18 Oct 2023

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379 sats \ 1 reply \ @davidw 18 Oct 2023

I feel like the Pavlovian dog, being reconditioned everyday. And I'm all for it.

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 19 Oct 2023

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1669 sats \ 10 replies \ @benthecarman 18 Oct 2023

I have my min zap at 100 so I can keep my hat easily

395 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Huge oversight on my part

Yes, zapping more also makes you a better cowboy.

153 sats \ 1 reply \ @quark 18 Oct 2023

Price of the hat may have to increase. 😃

31 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Maybe the price should be randomized. People are getting a little too comfortable.

10 sats \ 5 replies \ @gmd 18 Oct 2023

how much to keep cowboy hat?

351 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Don't be cheap!

262 sats \ 3 replies \ @gmd 18 Oct 2023

lol was just curious…

top 40 all time SN spender here. My problem lately is my stack keeps increasing even though i try to be generous with zaps

208 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Just doing my part to reinforce the culture of not being explicit about exactly how to get a cowboy hat

198 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 19 Oct 2023

if you're curious enough, take a look around the codebase :)

you'll know when you find it. you don't need any coding experience imo.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @gmd 19 Oct 2023

hahaha in retrospect I never liked learning the secret sauce behind magic tricks :P

52 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 18 Oct 2023

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174 sats \ 10 replies \ @SimpleStacker 18 Oct 2023

Presumably since the algorithm is open source one can derive the game theoretic optimal strategies for zapping and find all the Nash equilibria

272 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek 18 Oct 2023

i am actually working on a blog post to make it transparent how it works so you don't even need to look at the code, lol

our algorithm should behave like hash algorithms or ciphers: you know exactly how it works, but you're unable to reverse it.

100 sats \ 3 replies \ @0fje0 19 Oct 2023

so you don't even need to look at the code

Having done that, I must say I'm looking forward to this blog post, thanks. They're usually top notch. (At least the ones I've seen.)

100 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 19 Oct 2023

Having done that, I must say I'm looking forward to this blog post

lol, but I can understand :)

they're usually top notch. (At least the ones I've seen.)

Thanks! I only posted to https://ekzyis.com/blog/ so far, so I think you've seen all if you mean them :)

I wanted to publish a blog post every two weeks but unfortunately, looks more like it's every four weeks. Last one was on 2023-09-25, so maybe this next one about the SN algorithm should be out next week :)

I'm almost done with image uploads, which I intend to finish this week. Then I'll focus on the blog post and then moving priorities to other things like https://delphi.market/ (which is like a testbed how prediction markets could work on SN) and wallet or DM stuff :)

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @0fje0 19 Oct 2023

if you mean them

Yes, those WireGuard ones.

DM stuff

DM's coming to SN?

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 19 Oct 2023

DM's coming to SN?

Yes, most likely using NIP-44

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 18 Oct 2023

cool beans!

43 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Since it depends on where you rank amongst the other users, you'd have to make some assumptions about how they're going to behave (and those assumptions are going to be wrong).

I think it's better to essentially use a numerical solver in this setting, rather than try to find an analytical solution.

220 sats \ 2 replies \ @SimpleStacker 18 Oct 2023

Sounds like a great project for an econ grad student. Derive the Nash equilibria, whether numerically or analytically, grab the behavioral data from stacker.news, and test whether users are behaving according to game theoretic predictions.

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @elvismercury 19 Oct 2023

SN is like a fucking gold mine for graduate-level research. We have a new econ guy starting on Monday that I am aiming to entice...

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Well, we know users aren't, since we're all zapping different amounts, but there is a treasure trove of data for an enterprising behavioral or experimental econ PhD student.

226 sats \ 8 replies \ @ruS7Y 18 Oct 2023

My default is 21 but I like holding the left click at times.

132 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bullen 19 Oct 2023

I didn't know about holding the left click and assumed what was going to happen was that I started streaming sats until I released..

Now I want that.

210 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

Cool idea! You should float it by the dev team.

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bullen 19 Oct 2023

Hmmm. Yeah, great idea. Maybe I shall!

142 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

There's a good chance you're short-changing yourself, as well as the people whose posts you like, with that default. I also used 21 as my default for awhile, but my rewards more than compensated when I first tried increasing it to 210.

330 sats \ 3 replies \ @ruS7Y 18 Oct 2023

Just increased mine to 111

LFGGG!

141 sats \ 1 reply \ @shyfire 18 Oct 2023

YOLO just made mine 210

110 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Giddyup!

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

That's roughly where I'm at right now, but it's going to be a little higher tomorrow.

153 sats \ 0 replies \ @chaoticalHeavy 18 Oct 2023

I noticed it too, the more I zap the higher my balance gets.

153 sats \ 0 replies \ @OneOneSeven 18 Oct 2023

Darth had a good comment the other day in the saloon: #281068

552 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 19 Oct 2023

You've missed also some very important aspect: the cowboy hat. I will say no more about that, is kind of secret, but many ignore it.

132 sats \ 1 reply \ @chungkingexpress 19 Oct 2023

I have a 420 default zap so I should easily get the cowboy hat every day now I guess?

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @amaluenda 19 Oct 2023

This worked for me. 🤓

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

You're totally right, but someone else pointed it out already.

145 sats \ 1 reply \ @HarounKola 22 Oct 2023

This is a great experiment to find out just how generous you can be and how much abundance one can share. Long may it continue and thanks for the feedback.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 22 Oct 2023

So far, I've had to continue raising my default everyday since making this post. Equilibrium might still be a ways away.

233 sats \ 1 reply \ @adexmakai4211 19 Oct 2023

I just joined Stacker News but I will consider that. Thanks.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

Welcome aboard!

232 sats \ 0 replies \ @ladyluck 19 Oct 2023

I know I'm zapping well whenever I look at my cowboy hat streak

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @joyepzion 19 Oct 2023

Stacker News Zapping has this value for value mentality working for it

132 sats \ 4 replies \ @Entrep 19 Oct 2023

I will have to try this your approach, the only challenge is I haven't been using Stacker News every day

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

That's going to make it hard to keep your cowboy hat, but otherwise it should work for you.

132 sats \ 2 replies \ @Entrep 19 Oct 2023

This has been my dilemma

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

It's tough. Cowboys don't get days off.

132 sats \ 0 replies \ @Entrep 19 Oct 2023

This could make for a good SN titled post

132 sats \ 1 reply \ @chungkingexpress 19 Oct 2023

I just updated my default zap to 420 ftw.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

Good man! There are so many symbolic numbers other than 21.

120 sats \ 1 reply \ @dieselbaby 18 Oct 2023

Alright, you've convinced me to increase my zap default amount to 21

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

Be the change!

120 sats \ 5 replies \ @cryotosensei 18 Oct 2023

I just wanna keep my cowboy hat

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

What cowboy hat?

142 sats \ 3 replies \ @nemo 19 Oct 2023

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31 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

I would like it to be noted that @cryotosensei had no cowboy hat when I made that comment.

143 sats \ 0 replies \ @cryotosensei 20 Oct 2023

Glad to be reunited with my cowboy hat when I made this comment xP

142 sats \ 0 replies \ @nemo 19 Oct 2023

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120 sats \ 3 replies \ @shyfire 18 Oct 2023

I noticed the same @ increased zap amounts but attributed it to a general influx of liquidity. Like let's say each new user brings 5k sats and most of the sats never leave

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

I don't follow. Can you elaborate?

110 sats \ 1 reply \ @shyfire 19 Oct 2023

Err I haven't thought it through, but with an uptick in users there could generally just be more people zapping too, as opposed to higher minimums.

210 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 19 Oct 2023

Could be. No reason we can't have both, though.

120 sats \ 2 replies \ @2bithits 18 Oct 2023

I'm sure there is a way to game SN. Better just to enjoy yourself & zap the content you think were good

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct 2023

I'm not advocating gaming SN for profit, exactly. My approach is to just enjoy myself & zap the content I like, as you put it.

My point is that the amount people are zapping is suboptimal. You can benefit both yourself and the people you're zapping by increasing the amount. So, why not zap bigger? If nothing else, it gives you more sats for zapping tomorrow's content.

120 sats \ 0 replies \ @2bithits 18 Oct 2023

Agreed. I upped mine a few months ago & I do seem to be getting more back most of the time.

42 sats \ 0 replies \ @fred 19 Oct 2023

Yes I can agree with you on this, there is a high volume of zappers presently on Stacker News

69 sats \ 3 replies \ @cryotosensei 15 May

I think the reward algorithm has changed since your post.

Now that the Leaderboard is public, I can’t help noticing how I’m ranked lower than some Stackers even though I stack/spend/post more. The only metric I lose out on in commenting. I think beyond a certain default zap, increasing your zap amount won’t reap dividends. So zap little, zap often n comment often (to increase your engagement) is the way to go?

I’m just curious about how this whole thing works. Not jealous of others’ rewards haha

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

You're probably losing out on the zapping early dimension, as well as the "top post" dimension. Ranking higher on top posts has more to do with who zaps you than how much.

Also, all of the elements are highly non-linear: i.e. being 2nd instead of 3rd is worth much more than being 15th instead of 16th.

If some of these new stackers knocked you down a position or two in each category it could be a real set-back.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @cryotosensei 15 May

But you zap most of my posts. Is it not enough? 😪

Just kidding

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 15 May

Look at my stats on the leaderboard compared to who’s ahead of me and you’ll see that my influence is pretty limited.

40 sats \ 21 replies \ @Satosora 18 Oct

Man, I have been thinking about this for a while. But I have noticed there are quite a few more sat farmers here now.

30 sats \ 20 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct

I didn't really think about it in other conversations about the sat farmers who are gaming the rewards system, but if real Stackers would zap more it could deter them.

Those sat farmers are exploiting an inefficiency that stackers created, by not zapping as much as the rewards system is incentivizing.

As for other sat farmers, Stackers need to be more diligent with their zaps.

55 sats \ 19 replies \ @Satosora 18 Oct

Yes, that is what I am thinking. We have gotten used to a system that didnt have these farmers for a while, so wwe have become complacent. We need to start calling out sat farmers and downzapping. Maybe the top 20 should form a committee to talk about this? I heard from Darth that a lot happens behind the scenes.....

30 sats \ 18 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct

What I do is just downzap low quality content a couple of sats.

I figure that's small enough that if I'm wrong, then it's no harm no foul. It's also small enough that I don't hesitate to do it.

The outlawing rule gives more weight to the number of downzappers than the size of the downzap.

40 sats \ 17 replies \ @Satosora 18 Oct

Interesting. I will have to keep that in mind. Downzapping hasnt been my forte, but I should start doing it. I feel I do have some obligation to the community, as we all should.

68 sats \ 16 replies \ @OneOneSeven 18 Oct

I'm still kicking myself this week for not downzapping a post that I probably should've when I first saw it pop up.

Normally I wouldn't care much but it got like 25k sats for just copy-pasting to SN with nice looking markdown, and none were forwarded to the author, who is on SN.

22 sats \ 0 replies \ @Satosora 18 Oct

Which post was that? I kick myself all the time about posts. There are some people I know that are sat farming, but if everyone gives them a few sats, their posts rise. So....that means his posts are relevant, right? Or is everyone giving sats because of the algorithm?

30 sats \ 14 replies \ @Undisciplined OP 18 Oct

Dang, that's pretty egregious.

I think posts like that do need to be called out. I've seen people call them out in the comments and in the saloon.

I'm really bad at catching stuff like that, but I'll downzap 'em hard if someone else catches it.

35 sats \ 13 replies \ @Satosora 18 Oct

Im slow at catching that kind of stuff, too. I feel I know a certain crowd of people here, all the newcomers and stuff, I am a bit reserved about.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SaToSHiWoMaN 5 Mar outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SaToSHiWoMaN 10 Mar outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.