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I'm back on chain using muun.
You could choose Bitkit, Mutiny or Blixt. These wallets are similar to Phoenix, but allow you to connect to any LSP/node.
Muun <<
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Someone comes and offers a great service that the market demands and no one is offering.
Because they are pretty much alone, they can charge a lot and have a juicy margin. They still sell since there is no competition.
Eventually, some ballsy entrepreneur notices the situation and thinks to himself: "I can do the same thing for half the price". And he goes and does it.
As more of these hungry entrepreneurs join the scene, competitions starts and the margins go lower and lower, translating into lower and lower prices for customers. The starting guys can't keep charging the fat margin anymore.
So, don't stress out and just give things some time. Phoenix is charging what they charge because they can get away with it, until competition joins and they won't be able to. And the hefty fee is precisely what's going to make all of it possible.
Finally, I find it hard to see how they are killing the purpose of using LN. I paid 2342 sats for my coffee this morning with Phoenix and the fee was 12 sats. That's clearly much better than what I would have had to pay with an onchain transaction, so I feel the purpose of LN with Phoenix is very much alive.
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Much better than the credit card networks as well Visa/MasterCard/AMEX. 12 sat fee isn’t bad to buy a coffee
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100 sats \ 4 replies \ @ek 3 Oct 2023
Tbh, I think Muun is killing the purpose of LN with submarine swaps (if they still do that)
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With Muun, you are on chain. They just give swap services for LN. But the point is that their are cheaper.
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have fun being screwed by Muun.
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I’ll le you know :)
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On chain fees are about as low as they will likely get right now. That can change in a hurry.
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I'm pretty sure it will change, but expending 100$ or more give you room to get into 10s/b or so if you compare it to 0.5% fee.
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True. It certainly makes sense right now. At the same time I dont think Phoenix fees are ridiculously high. We have to expect these projects to be able to earn a profit from the considerable work they put in.
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Yep, 100%, but I also believe competition is healthy for users.
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I agree. It's smart to keep an eye on the "arbitrage." Do you run a node? I usually use Zeus connected to my node.
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I ran a LND node for couple of years, when zap (Jack Mallers app) was a thing and it was maintained, but I became lazy lately.
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I just realized that was a dumb question! You wouldn't be talking about Muun and Phoenix. I have to admit I use Phoenix even when I could use Zeus sometimes. It just seems smooth and convenient, but I'm throwing away sats.
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yep, I will take a look other options, I was happy using electrum few years ago.
Try Electrum. And Blink
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Just ran into this today. Was going to do a Phoenix to Phoenix invoice which was typically less than 5 sats. With the new version it would have cost 4000 sats. Crazy.
Back to using Mutiny, Zeus, Breez
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You sure that was the tx fee and not the fee to open a channel (includes mining fee)?
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sending "big" amounts like >50$ will cost you more on phoenix than on-chain (with the current on-chain fees).
But if you are sending 100$ or more constantly, onchain is cheaper even with high fees.
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10 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek 3 Oct 2023
Ah, I see:
vs
Yeah, with 1-2 sat/vB onchain LN is only useful for micropayments.
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Also , when you receive a payment bigger than the inbound capacity you have you will be paying the onchain fee too.
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I have plenty of channels open with outbound liquidity higher than $100 and pay much less than what on-chain fees would cost. If I was doing thousands of dollars, then it would be different
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Yeah, definitely not opening channel fee. Onchain fees were really cheap at the time. I ended up sending the transaction on Zeus for a much cheaper fee. Zeus has some cool new LSP features where you can run an embedded node on your own phone.
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Fees are high, but you don't need to run a LN node, hold your keys & most of all it just works.
Muun is ok for a dead mempool
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Trying out the Zeus LSP node, which also ends up with a +- 0.4% fee.
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I hold some on my custodial wallet - Wallet of Satoshi
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Permission transactions will never be cheap or should be.
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I guess you wanted to say permission-less?
Whats the point of LN then?
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It still makes sense IRL to buy at a merchant's store but I agree it's really expensive
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Their service is very good so I don't mind if they get compensated for this. I want their business to be successful. An extra fee for a self custodial wallet is worth it to me.
Interesting to note that they have since dropped the fee to 0.4%.
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I am ok with phoenix and breez, but I want to move to Zeus and Blixt too. The worst part for me about having your own node is you have to run it continuously and with a reliable connection. I know there are watchtower things but I need to study about it. is it cheap?
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The worst part for me about having your own node is you have to run it continuously and with a reliable connection.
A bit, that's why I'm using Blixt as a backup when I'm travelling.
is it cheap?
Running your own node? It has some initial hardware setup costs, but then no more middlemen, and you can even run your own bank or act as Uncle Jim for your family and friends 👀 ( I'm using Umbrel )
I'd recommend trying Blixt first, low cost starting fun, and it's a really cool phone node; But keep that in mind: Blixt is new, good to experiment and learn while it is maturing.
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ah sorry I mean if is it cheaper to use watchtowers that check if your node goes offline to avoid risks. I know they exist but I don't know how it works yet I guess I will follow your advice and try Blixt first :) thanks!
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thanks, I learned it from @darthcoin and minimizing the setup for myself, less is more.!
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