101 sats \ 14 replies \ @grnldy 2 Sep 2023 \ on: I think that Simple Swaps BTC->XMR->BTC are better than mixing. Change my mind bitcoin
BTC -> L-BTC -> Lightning -> BTC change my mind
L-BTC does not hide the transaction graph, so you are probably not achieving much by adding it as a step in the middle there.
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Do it with $100K in one TX, What about $1M? You can't since you are going through LN and the capacity is not there
Now if you are doing $300 dollars TX you can, and the only layer of privacy there is L-BTC, problem is, L-BTC is quite centralized , you will be trusting your BTC while on going the swap to a multi Sig wallet in the hands of several companies, not your keys, not your coins, hard pass
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I know what you mean. But aren't a lot of mixers hot wallets essentially? Where if they went poof, goodbye, everyone gets rugged?
Yes. Federated side chains are the epitome of trust. But there is no such thing as completely trustless. (Think about it). From the software kernels to the hardware devices to the Core and mempool interfaces, we're using some limited trust often.
Liquid is what I consider a lukewarm wallet. Adam Back IMO has been here since day 1 and has a good reputation for being all about the tech. He's low key and sticks around to build interesting stuff. Not a lot of ego. Just a computer and finance geek enjoying tinkering.
Blockstream makes good FOSS stuff too IMO.
Whereas, Sparrow, for example, when mixing, at some points is hot. Your coins and getting zipped around and you have to trust they'll come back.
IMO, Liquid has a good reputation and trusting them in small, measured doses is a point some of us can consider.
Fees to peg in and out are 0.1%. Lowest in the game for what's trying to be accomplished.
Caveat: no I don't work for them. I just went down the rabbit hole of how to clear ownership and literally came up with: liquid, coinjoins, or atomic swapping off chain with something like XMR.
In each scenario trust was involved at some level, as were fees.
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"I know what you mean. But aren't a lot of mixers hot wallets essentially? Where if they went poof, goodbye, everyone gets rugged?"
- The only decent mixer I know of is whirlpool used by Sparrow Wallet and Samourai Wallet and you need to know what you are doing if you want to be fully private. But as I mentioned in the post, the fees are high for most
"Yes. Federated side chains are the epitome of trust. But there is no such thing as completely trustless. (Think about it). From the software kernels to the hardware devices to the Core and mempool interfaces, we're using some limited trust often."
- IMO, one thing is to trust a group of corporations "good intentions" willingly another thing is to be a victim of a random bug or attack you didn't have control over.
"Liquid is what I consider a lukewarm wallet. Adam Back IMO has been here since day 1 and has a good reputation for being all about the tech. He's low key and sticks around to build interesting stuff. Not a lot of ego. Just a computer and finance geek enjoying tinkering.
Blockstream makes good FOSS stuff too IMO."
- Agree with you, Adam Back is one of my favorite persons in the ecosystem, however, L-BTC is not ideal, I would be trusting my BTC to a multisig wallet controlled by several companies which may or may not one day decide to put their hands inside of the cookie jar, nah, not for me, hard pass. not your keys, not your coins
"Whereas, Sparrow, for example, when mixing, at some points is hot. Your coins and getting zipped around and you have to trust they'll come back."
- The code is open source, you are mixing in a pool, you are safe and sure you own that amount of coins as per the contract and proof of that is the transaction you signed. There are over 8600 coins currently in the mixer and the number keeps increasing, never an issue during the long time it has been working, I don't see the appeal, I rather do an atomic swap when needed.
"IMO, Liquid has a good reputation and trusting them in small, measured doses is a point some of us can consider."
- I respect that, but not me, not your keys, not your coins, I like to sleep well knowing I am in complete control of my funds
Hey, thanks for taking the time to share your ideas, much appreciated!
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Is peg-in, peg-out and normal send distinguishable ?
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who is going to exchange 1M in monero?
there is no liquidity there.
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I think you have not research XMR financials yet:
From coinmarketcap as of the time I posted this reply:
- Market cap $2,584,101,603
- Volume (24h) $59,543,938
- Rank: #25
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Or,
**
** / -> BTC Cold Storage
** BTC -> L-BTC -> Lightning <
** \ -> LN Spending wallet
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L-BTC does not hide the transaction graph, so you are probably not achieving much by adding it as a step in the middle there.
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L-BTC only hides amounts.
Senders and receivers are known.
IP origin of transaction is not hidden by default.
Also a permissioned network.
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This is the way. Although interesting you go from Liquid to Lightning and then back to BTC. Why the Lightning stop?
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LN I mean private LN node running over tor
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Why. What's the difference if you just go from Liquid to a new BTC address?
What is happening if you go from Liquid to a private Lightning Node first?
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More privacy I think
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