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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @AyCaramba OP 23 Jul 2023 \ parent \ on: A 3rd party pre image for an invoice tx between 2 parties, Application idea. bitcoin
Thanks for the reply!!
Yeah the htlc bloating is an issue I have read a lot about in my research.
Regarding the existing wallets, I would really need both parties' wallets to be regular ones (eg wallet of satoshi) so that means Hodl Invoices are really not an option for my concept (seller will be just a regular person, not a lightning node operator).
Also onchain txs (using multisig 3-2 schemes) are not really a solution due to long confirmation times. For me a fast user experience is the key.
Considering these restrictions, I believe my idea is not possible at this time.
I will just explore the custodial solution (handling the money) using my infrastructure. I will collect no data anyway (use LNURL auth). I will make sure of setting it up as secure as possible. Anyway I do not expect large amounts .
Your idea is possible without needing the seller to run a lightning node. Instead of having the seller create the hodl invoice, you can run a lightning node and create a hodl invoice. This doesn't mean the payment will come to you. Before creating your invoice, get a regular lightning invoice from the seller's ordinary lightning wallet, extract its payment hash, and use that payment hash in your lightning invoice -- which is a hodl invoice. Once that is done, the buyer can safely attempt to pay your hodl invoice, knowing that you can't settle it except by forwarding the payment to the seller -- i.e. by paying the seller's invoice. That action will get you the preimage you need in order to settle the buyer's payment, thus completing the circuit.
My hodlcontracts software is designed to automate some parts of this and make it easy.
Regarding htlc bloating, it is true that lightning node operators sometimes get mad when a payment has a really long htlc because such payments can lock up their liquidity for a long time. However, there are pretty good solutions out there for managing that. It is easy to configure your lightning node not to forward long htlcs, and you can even price them differently by setting up a low-fee node that won't forward long htlcs and a high-fee node that will. Each node's htlc duration limits are part of gossip, so wallets can easily detect if they need to create a long htlc and then seek routes that will forward it.
There are also ways to limit htlc bloating by introducing more messages. For example, a custom routing node can easily delay forwarding long htlcs until it gets a message from the seller saying they are ready to receive the payment. Once they get that message, they can forward the payment and expect instant settlement by the seller, thus avoiding imposing a lengthy lockup period on other routing nodes. People who want such a service could then send long htlcs with low bloat by opening a channel with that custom routing node and sending their payment through that channel. In that case, the only htlc slots that get locked up belong to the custom routing node, who explicitly permits this as a service and therefore (probably) charges a high enough routing fee to compensate for the time value their money loses while locked up.
Everything in the last paragraph is easy to do today with wallets that let users choose their channel counterparties, such as blixt wallet, electrum wallet, and zeus. Most popular LN wallets do not let you to manage your own channels, and thus they cannot take advantage of the above-described technique, but perhaps if such services became popular, the popular wallets would add support for it. In the mean time, you could just recommend better wallets for an optimal experience, but still -- even using a basic wallet with no channel management features -- such payments should work just fine, and if routing nodes get mad that their htlc slots get locked up as a result, they can increase their fees for long htlcs using the tools that are already available.
So don't give up on your idea! It is very possible to do today.
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Hey! Thanks for the reply
I agree the bloating problem is a node problem (I as a node operator can manage that).
I did not know I can reuse a payment hash so that the payment will just bounce from me, that is neat!
I was checking the hodlcontract repo, looks nice. I hope I will use it to setup a server.
My idea would be to replicate your setup (LND + flask server in my private machine) plus a public web app in another exposed one so the idea would be to connect via rest API to the server. or another way I would like instead of the web app is just an Android app that will interact with the flask server itself.
Thanks, I have enough here to start working.
BTW I only want this as a delivery service, since a guy who started a burger place (accepting btc) asked me to do a lightning solution for the delivery of food.
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