What should a phone for bitcoiners have? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

What should a phone for bitcoiners have?

1817 sats \ 43 comments \ @final 17 Jun 2023 bitcoin

I was watching the last Stacker News Live when I saw a discussion about how someone should create a phone made for bitcoiners.

I will likely write a post about it somewhere but I just wanted to ask SN: What do you think a phone for bitcoiners should have? What features, threat model, etc. How would you make one?

Do you think should there not be one at all? Discuss.

I have my own ideas also but want to see how others would do it.

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335 sats \ 6 replies \ @tduffles 17 Jun 2023 freebie

Hardware: Removable battery, 3.5mm headphone jack, micro SD card reader, no front camera, USB-C

Software: A Nostr client to easily sync to your relay, LN wallet to easily sync to personal LND, Orange Pilled App & ZBD & THNDR games, and other fun bitcoiner apps.

40 sats \ 1 reply \ @final OP 17 Jun 2023

Would still love a phone to have headphones to this day.

I would 100% love to see a wallet app that works with the security hardware too like a keystore. I heard another "web3" shitcoin had a phone like that but I've also never saw it get proven either.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @john_doe 18 Jun 2023

The phones made by Sony have a headphone jack if it's what you want.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 18 Jun 2023

LOL you want a privacy phone without a front camera but you want to install ZBD wallet that REQUIRE google services and KYC...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @tduffles 19 Jun 2023

It's not like the phone is even going to happen any time soon, it was just a fun thing to post about what I would like to see in a phone tailored towards bitcoiners. And it doesn't have to have all those features/apps either. Just throwing out some ideas.

255 sats \ 1 reply \ @nymatix 17 Jun 2023

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shibe 17 Jun 2023

Purism has a phone with the same hardware kill switches as their laptops, the Librem 5.

The issue is that it's not that good unless you value both privacy and a FOSS stack more than everything else. The SOC is not that good, the battery from what I remember is pretty bad too, and it uses Linux, and mobile Linux is still pretty underwhelming. Also people who preordered years ago are still waiting to receive theirs

235 sats \ 8 replies \ @02e2c9e0da 17 Jun 2023

I have always preferred a Pixel phone

215 sats \ 5 replies \ @final OP 17 Jun 2023

Been loudly and proudly using GrapheneOS with Pixels for a few years now. Unrivalled OS and a genius piece of work.

If I was building a phone from the ground up I'd use it as a base operating system for sure

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @nymatix 17 Jun 2023

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10 sats \ 3 replies \ @final OP 17 Jun 2023

GrapheneOS explains here about the Pixel phone choice. TLDR: all the other Android OEMs cut security functionality when another OS is installed or are missing features GrapheneOS needs.

As for buying a Pixel I typically buy mine from a phone retailer, tell them I want "Handset only with no cellular data plan" or from a supermarket - never been asked for ID to just buy a phone before, maybe it's a country difference?

You could also buy secondhand or refurbished if you want, or get someone to purchase by proxy I guess

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @nymatix 17 Jun 2023

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @john_doe 18 Jun 2023

I didn't know in some countries people had to show an ID to buy a phone and I am quite astonished by this. Until now i only knew this for alcohol. New or old I always bought a smartphone the same way I would buy a computer, I just give the money and I get it, never shown an ID.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nymatix 18 Jun 2023

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21 sats \ 1 reply \ @axzwk 17 Jun 2023

Would be nice to avoid giving money to google

25 sats \ 0 replies \ @2bithits 17 Jun 2023

True, but it would also be nice not to give it to Apple or the CCP

132 sats \ 3 replies \ @launchwindow 18 Jun 2023

The OS should be based on Rust (or another memory safe language), rather than *nix

50% of hacks/exploits/0days/CVE's are based on memory and buffer bugs

Rust prevents this at the compiler level. Linus has said that Linux will start incorporating more Rust into the OS to prevent these exploits (https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-rust-will-go-into-linux-6-1/)

There's a pre-prod rust microkernel OS called Redox, made by the System76 team, it is a good template for how to build a Rust OS (https://www.redox-os.org/)

A "bitcoiner phone" should use Redox, or at least take some inspiration from Redox, to eliminate OS-level memory safety exploits.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @shibe 18 Jun 2023

I think Redox is super cool but I don't think it's anywhere near ready for mobile use. That'd require the following:

Hardware acceleration/drivers (most likely these will need to be ported from Linux like how the BSDs do, so they'd likely suffer from the same vulnerabilities)
More widely supported hardware platforms
More applications (ideally some sort of Linux emulation, I remember hearing about progress on this but I don't know if it's still under active development)

There's a pre-prod rust microkernel OS called Redox, made by the System76 team, it is a good template for how to build a Rust OS

I don't think Redox is a System76 project? You might be thinking about System76's new DE Cosmic

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @launchwindow 18 Jun 2023

I agree Redox is nowhere near ready, but like I said I think its inspiration for what a memory safe OS could look like.

Redox OS is not officially a System76 product, it is FOSS under MIT License. The lead maintainer for Redox is Jeremy Soller who is also the principal engineer for System76, and RedoxOS recommends using System76 PC's for best compatibility.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @final OP 18 Jun 2023

Great answer, Id be really into running an OS made with a microkernel with majority of code in a memory-safe language - sadly seems like it would be a long way away.

Windows has also expressed interest to move to a language like Rust throughout the OS, instead of a microkernel they use a virtualization security approach by having Windows components run in their own virtualized environments. (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-vbs)

There is another project (Xous) that does the same thing you described but is mobile and has a hardware device to boot. Really cool but still experimentative: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor

Sadly it has no cellular network so it isn't really a phone, and I believe it may be lacking in the hardware security department since it has no security modules to be as open-source as possible. Worried it could be exploited like a Trezor would...

GrapheneOS also expressed interest to move to a microkernel which runs Android on top via virtualization. https://twitter.com/GrapheneOS/status/1586793216413769729

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @mudbloodvonfrei 17 Jun 2023

Here's what I'd like:

A simple flip phone with e-ink screen, long battery life, calls, texts, payments over lightning and WiFi tethering so I can connect my laptop for anything else. Bonus sats if it can survive a fall from a drone at 1000 feet like an old Nokia.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @axzwk 17 Jun 2023

Pritty much what the fairphone 4 offers, combined with a good open source os.

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @03365d6a53 17 Jun 2023

Pixel with Graphene is the best you can get right now

26 sats \ 0 replies \ @02e2c9e0da 17 Jun 2023

And for a Laptop System 76

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @DarthCoin 18 Jun 2023

Is a good initiative, but not realistic. Many tried before and they end up with very expensive devices that only few freaks buh them. Then slowly people forget about them.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @final OP 18 Jun 2023

Can agree on this, when trying to look at previous phone examples all I saw was gimmicky overpriced junk or total shitcoinery.

I think it should be an opt-in change to other devices (like a custom OS) rather than it's own thing, but without integrated support for hardware security it's basically no different to running a hot wallet app on a smartphone.

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @rousty 18 Jun 2023

A non-Android based phone would be great, but not really realistic in the short term. Quickest root to having a working phone(capable app ecosystem etc) is obviously using Android. So something similar to what Solana mobile are doing https://solanamobile.com/ . See how that does and learn and improve on it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @final OP 18 Jun 2023

I'm not into it but I keep seeing claims they store the wallet's secrets within the secure element of the device, but they are mixed so I really don't know.

I always had the assumption they couldn't since they'd need to directly co-operate with an OEM to design functionality to store seed phrases or cryptocurrency keys. So I'd need to see something that showed otherwise.

Would like to see one for myself for the sake of forensic analysis but I am not wasting money to get one especially when I won't ever use SOL.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @muteness11 18 Jun 2023

The solana one ;)

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @SantaNotSanta 18 Jun 2023

bitcoiner phone of the future will have hardware wallet built in

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @broadmode 18 Jun 2023

https://grapheneos.org/faq#recommended-devices

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 18 Jun 2023

It needs a proccessor that consumes little energy but also dont get warm under sustained load

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @SatoshiNakanodo 18 Jun 2023

What I need are the same features available in an iPhone or Pixel but with some way of loading apps that is both OPEN and SECURE. I'm not a software engineer or developer so I don't know how you'd balance the two – ie. guard against malware without having some sort of centralized app store.

Bonus: It'd be nice if it were affordable for someone making worker‘s wages.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @final OP 18 Jun 2023

loading apps that is both OPEN and SECURE.

guard against malware without having some sort of centralized app store.

Like a sandbox? Running apps in a contained environment where you can limit what the apps can do. Android/ iOS does and GrapheneOS does it to a better extent (control internet, sensors, and file access etc.)

I think relying on some app store to protect you against malware is dated. A lot of OS' take an approach of hardening themselves in hopes when you somehow get malware it deals far less damage. Would also make the OS more difficult to exploit and make the budget for very sophisticated attacks go up.

5 sats \ 1 reply \ @02fa90fd41 17 Jun 2023

Was it this article? #192727

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @final OP 17 Jun 2023

It was during the commentary of the livestream but if I remember correctly this article appeared, yes

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @AlexEmidio 17 Jun 2023

Pixel da Google

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @btcforlife 18 Jun 2023 freebie

If we're talking about extreme privacy, I have to agree with some of the comments here, get an old but decent android with a removable battery, if you're savvy enough get a custom rom and get rid of everything you don't need, it's not an easy task btw.

If we're just talking about daily usage, no bloatware and a smartphone that will last you for a couple years, get a Pixel, even a used one will do, just make sure to get GrapheneOS on it, you'll be :)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Believe 19 Jun 2023

Iphone is better for security. If i have to buy a new one i would love to go with apple