I don't think the average Joe is interested in abolishing ICE or the police. Nor do I think the average Joe is all that worried about the actions of ICE. I think extreme leftism is a loser.
But there is a line of what makes people uncomfortable with ICE and federal police. I suspect Trump is getting close to that. Regardless of what that SHOULD be it is a thing.
Framing and media narratives are the battleground. Not a game I am playing but I still say we are in the middle of a civil war. The more common type. Not the so called one we had with Lincoln.
But there is a line of what makes people uncomfortable with ICE and federal police. I suspect Trump is getting close to that. Regardless of what that SHOULD be it is a thing.
Thats a great way to put it.
Personally, its very hard to imagine HOW they (ICE) should do their jobs the best. The scale of the problem has grown too large. To my mind, I think the order for deportations should be: (a) criminal history, (b) on welfare or public assistance, (c) unemployed .... I would put the (d) poor illegal mexican lawn worker / avocado picker at the end of the line (ideally we should have a guest worker program for them).
I suspect many average Joes have emotionally tuned out, they instinctively know the problem has grown too much, too fast and thus they are ignoring the the real potential abuses that ICE may be doing (in certain situations).
In a sense, this is just "problems of government" writ large. They created the problem and now fixing the problem is going to be messy and fraught with other problems.
In a sense, this is just "problems of government" writ large. They created the problem and now fixing the problem is going to be messy and fraught with other problems.
This is my response to the friends I have who only have outrage aimed at Trump. He's the natural response to the malfunction we call the US government and political system. I've yet to have a single one of these friends read "Return of the Strong Gods" which at this point feel prophetic.
I think most people have a hard time seeing things from both sides of an issue. Or they have no desire to do so. The status quo and Trumps actions are on the hands of both parties and their lack of willingness to come to agreements / compromise decades ago.
What I wish people would get is how this is all a game and I don't think either group of political figures care about anything besides their power. They use and abuse people pitting them against each other to grab power.
If the left actually cared about immigrants more than power they would have worked with Reagan in the 80s on reforming the US policies.
The same people during Covid ready to lock me up for going against state and local rules using the police as a weapon want the state to stop enforcing rules they don't like.
We are surrounded by hypocrisy and if we are honest we are all probably guilty of it.
It cracked me up how BLM and Defund the police just faded away during the Biden admin.
I know it didn't disappear but it wasn't given much attention by the Democrat party. They were to busy trying to use law enforcement to close businesses during Covid.
Third Way is a Washington, D.C.–based public‑policy think tank founded in 2005. It describes itself as a non‑profit organization that develops and advocates for “modern center‑left” ideas, aiming to promote moderate, values‑driven policies across economics, social issues, clean‑energy, and national security. By positioning itself between traditional left‑leaning and right‑leaning positions, Third Way seeks to act as a bulwark against political extremism and to help centrist Democrats win elections and advance reforms such as an opportunity‑focused economy, progressive social policies, and a robust clean‑energy strategy.
Only heard him on Rogan and wow did he have some interesting twisty turns on Biblical stories. Like most, not all Christian politicians I dont trust him. To me he seems like a progressive that is based on progressive values not historically Christian and Biblical values.
In other words he seems to bring a lot of presumptions to his Christian views that are outside of orthodoxy. Specifically in regards to abortion and sexuality.
For what it's worth I think many Christians on the right do this as well but in different areas.
Outside of political skewing of Scripture I've seen a massive amount of bending the Bible into weird positions over my life. The tale tell sign is when your angle is novel. As if for 2000+ years no one understood it quite right.
There's quite a bit of trust that is required in the "interpreter" there. When your interpretation just conveniently fits a VERY popular political position or culturally popular stance its just a bit too much for me. The Bible, contrary to what many think cuts hard at everyone who comes to it with a honest approach. When you bring your own moral standard to it and force it upon it you aren't really really submitting to God.
An honest reading will convict a Republican, a Democrat, a Socialist, a Libertarian, and and Anarchist. The way of Jesus is hard and contrary to what most of us want. Many of the arguments that come from left wing Christians are fair. Many from the right are as well. We can learn from each other. But seldom is that the goal and intent. It is usually to appear better than the other. To put the other in their place. To win and use power to get their way. To use the state as a sort of ring of power.
If we have power, we will use it for good. Tolkien's lesson for man is so good and applies so well to the state/war/power. Its a seductive thing, power. It plays on our pride. The original sin of Lucifer. The original sin of Adam.
Yeah, I get quite annoyed when people try to put political messages into the Bible that aren't there. There's a word for this (putting your own thoughts into the text rather than drawing the thoughts out of the text): eisegesis vs. exegesis
Hard to resist reactionary politics. It's why I beat the dead horse that it's and idol.
When our minds are consumed by it and we lose faith if our guy loses. We have missed it. Christ is king alone. No matter who wins an election we know what we are supposed to do. It's just not easy to do.
Its fine to vote, I think and be invested but it is VERY common to see people more concerned with the politics of a church instead of the actual teaching and works of the church.
If a pastor speaks on a topic and it is on opposition to a political stance one has... you quickly see why the true allegance is. Of course, provided the message is within orthodoxy. The Bible often cuts to the hearts of both political sides. All of them really.
I'm a 'moderate', I don't believe in parties except for my party affiliation
campaigns as a centrist then votes like a left radical
is he pro life or pro abortion?
his populist rhetoric against billionaires is so novel, never heard that before
from his campaign page:
Those billionaires want to keep us from seeing all that we have in common. They want to keep us from realizing there’s far more that unites us than divides us. Because once we do, we’ll come together — across party, across race, across gender, across religion — to fix what’s broken in our country and take back power for ourselves and our communities.
2,000 years ago, when the powerful few rigged the system, that barefoot rabbi walked into the seat of power and flipped over the tables of injustice. To those who love our country, to those who love our neighbors:
Jesus's primary concern when flipping the tables was that they turned the temple into a place of commerce rather than worship. It wasn't about fighting injustice (or at least, not the political or economic kind.) If Jesus came to fight political injustice, he would have fought against the Romans.
Not sure what you mean by that. He was a teacher. That's what a Rabbi is. He wasn't a Rabbi like any of his day... he was the Christ. Want is the relevance of this comment?
He did go to synagogue and practiced the faith of Moses. But he also condemned the religious leaders of his day.
What is interesting is that even though Jesus didn't use violence he was a threat to both the Jewish and Roman governments. And his followers eventually overturned the Roman empire by following His teachings.
The root of our prolems is still sin. The idolatry of the state being our ring of power will always inslave us. Order and governance are not contray to Christianity but when the state is exalted to the solution to most of our problems we have missed the mark.
The left Christian is seduced by socialism and leaving to secular systems what should be the work of the church. As the church has become smaller in our lives the state has become large. An idol.
There are many idols but the state / politics is one I rarely hear people acknowledge.
Expand programs such as the Teacher Quality Partnership, Supporting Effective Educator Development, and the TEACH grant to fund and improve teacher training and close the teacher‑workforce gap.
Stop private‑school voucher scams
Oppose the voucher program championed by Governor Abbott (and now being promoted nationally) that diverts public‑school funds to private schools, especially for wealthy families.
Make public schools “the envy of the world”
Use federal influence to protect public‑school funding and raise standards so every Texas child has a quality education.
Enact legislation to allow adult use, expunge prior marijuana convictions, and earmark the new tax revenue for child‑care and early‑childhood education.
Paid family leave for all Texans
Create a regulatory framework for family‑leave insurance policies that employers can offer, providing paid leave to workers.
Expand affordable child‑care
Provide property‑tax exemptions for child‑care providers and increase the supply of high‑quality centers, making child‑care more accessible and affordable.
Defend separation of church & state
Block bills that would force Ten‑Commandments displays, replace school counselors with religious chaplains, or inject Bible stories into public‑school curricula.
Increase access to elder‑care
Pass the Older Americans Act Reauthorization to expand affordable home‑ and community‑based care for seniors and develop a high‑quality elder‑care workforce.
These pages contain the exact wording of the proposals and additional context about why Talarico supports them. If you need more depth on any specific item (e.g., legislative text, budget estimates), let me know and I can dig further.
no policy proposals, only platitudes about bringing people together and the billionaires are the real enemy how many billionaires in America? about 800? maybe 1000? 300 million 'ordinary' folk vs 1000 billionaires I like our odds except billionaires are not the real enemy
Yeah... kinda. But also when you want the state to solve problems or run things you give up freedom. You create a police state. Seems inevitable to me.
Property rights. Its all you need. But the state will not allow that. I'm not protesting ICE. Nor suggesting open borders. Just the state is the root problem.
Its funny to me because it is true. Many people that are today cheering on the e forcement of immigration policies and rules will not be happy when these same "officers of the law" are weaponized against them by the blue team.
That's why it's funny to me. No clue if the anon shares my perspective. I'm not in support of the anti-ICE morons but I'm also not happy to see federal policing of any kind. Just as I dont think anyone should get stolen money handed to them by the feds or state gov.
Of course their is corruption and people abusing the system. If we individuals had actual libety we could eliminate these problems. The state creates them and then offers solutions which always equal more power.
To be clear. The left is more wrong on this. They are more wrong but the right broadly isn't talking about the root problem.
Stealing from productive people and giving it to others. Not enforcing property rights. A government owning land and not enforcing their own laws. If you agree with a state and democracy but want to selectively enforce law then you have an incoherent philosophy.
That's the left and some on the right. We can't have nice things because of political systems being used to solve problems like this.
I thought we still weren't done abolishing the police, how come we're not doing that anymore?
Didn't they do enough of that to make people start hiring private police services.
Not yet. Not even close based on my circle.
I think @SimpleStacker had written about that happening in a neighborhood near him.
Not a neighborhood near me. My neighborhood. I am paying for it
Living the dream
At least the weather is good /sarc
Not saying it isn't happening. Has been for a long time.
I don't think the average Joe is interested in abolishing ICE or the police. Nor do I think the average Joe is all that worried about the actions of ICE. I think extreme leftism is a loser.
But there is a line of what makes people uncomfortable with ICE and federal police. I suspect Trump is getting close to that. Regardless of what that SHOULD be it is a thing.
Framing and media narratives are the battleground. Not a game I am playing but I still say we are in the middle of a civil war. The more common type. Not the so called one we had with Lincoln.
Thats a great way to put it.
Personally, its very hard to imagine HOW they (ICE) should do their jobs the best. The scale of the problem has grown too large. To my mind, I think the order for deportations should be: (a) criminal history, (b) on welfare or public assistance, (c) unemployed .... I would put the (d) poor illegal mexican lawn worker / avocado picker at the end of the line (ideally we should have a guest worker program for them).
I suspect many average Joes have emotionally tuned out, they instinctively know the problem has grown too much, too fast and thus they are ignoring the the real potential abuses that ICE may be doing (in certain situations).
In a sense, this is just "problems of government" writ large. They created the problem and now fixing the problem is going to be messy and fraught with other problems.
This is my response to the friends I have who only have outrage aimed at Trump. He's the natural response to the malfunction we call the US government and political system. I've yet to have a single one of these friends read "Return of the Strong Gods" which at this point feel prophetic.
I think most people have a hard time seeing things from both sides of an issue. Or they have no desire to do so. The status quo and Trumps actions are on the hands of both parties and their lack of willingness to come to agreements / compromise decades ago.
What I wish people would get is how this is all a game and I don't think either group of political figures care about anything besides their power. They use and abuse people pitting them against each other to grab power.
If the left actually cared about immigrants more than power they would have worked with Reagan in the 80s on reforming the US policies.
The same people during Covid ready to lock me up for going against state and local rules using the police as a weapon want the state to stop enforcing rules they don't like.
We are surrounded by hypocrisy and if we are honest we are all probably guilty of it.
It cracked me up how BLM and Defund the police just faded away during the Biden admin.
I know it didn't disappear but it wasn't given much attention by the Democrat party. They were to busy trying to use law enforcement to close businesses during Covid.
Clearly there isn't agreement on the left/center-left about this.
https://www.thirdway.org/about
Understanding the Third Way
Third Way is a Washington, D.C.–based public‑policy think tank founded in 2005. It describes itself as a non‑profit organization that develops and advocates for “modern center‑left” ideas, aiming to promote moderate, values‑driven policies across economics, social issues, clean‑energy, and national security. By positioning itself between traditional left‑leaning and right‑leaning positions, Third Way seeks to act as a bulwark against political extremism and to help centrist Democrats win elections and advance reforms such as an opportunity‑focused economy, progressive social policies, and a robust clean‑energy strategy.
What is a centrist Democrat?
Any examples?
maybe this guy: James Talarico
jamestalarico.com
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5GGtWMsqNE1g8oJHof9nd8
my dad loves Talarico
I don't know much about him. I'm hesitant. My gut tells me that the left is treating him as their "token Christian"
Only heard him on Rogan and wow did he have some interesting twisty turns on Biblical stories. Like most, not all Christian politicians I dont trust him. To me he seems like a progressive that is based on progressive values not historically Christian and Biblical values.
In other words he seems to bring a lot of presumptions to his Christian views that are outside of orthodoxy. Specifically in regards to abortion and sexuality.
For what it's worth I think many Christians on the right do this as well but in different areas.
Yep. Sad to see my dad fall for it, but he's got serious trump derangement syndrome
Outside of political skewing of Scripture I've seen a massive amount of bending the Bible into weird positions over my life. The tale tell sign is when your angle is novel. As if for 2000+ years no one understood it quite right.
There's quite a bit of trust that is required in the "interpreter" there. When your interpretation just conveniently fits a VERY popular political position or culturally popular stance its just a bit too much for me. The Bible, contrary to what many think cuts hard at everyone who comes to it with a honest approach. When you bring your own moral standard to it and force it upon it you aren't really really submitting to God.
An honest reading will convict a Republican, a Democrat, a Socialist, a Libertarian, and and Anarchist. The way of Jesus is hard and contrary to what most of us want. Many of the arguments that come from left wing Christians are fair. Many from the right are as well. We can learn from each other. But seldom is that the goal and intent. It is usually to appear better than the other. To put the other in their place. To win and use power to get their way. To use the state as a sort of ring of power.
If we have power, we will use it for good. Tolkien's lesson for man is so good and applies so well to the state/war/power. Its a seductive thing, power. It plays on our pride. The original sin of Lucifer. The original sin of Adam.
Yeah, I get quite annoyed when people try to put political messages into the Bible that aren't there. There's a word for this (putting your own thoughts into the text rather than drawing the thoughts out of the text): eisegesis vs. exegesis
Yes! We have a lot of eisegesis these days. Not new, but very common to see. Especially on social media.
Yeah... I know it well.
Hard to resist reactionary politics. It's why I beat the dead horse that it's and idol.
When our minds are consumed by it and we lose faith if our guy loses. We have missed it. Christ is king alone. No matter who wins an election we know what we are supposed to do. It's just not easy to do.
Its fine to vote, I think and be invested but it is VERY common to see people more concerned with the politics of a church instead of the actual teaching and works of the church.
If a pastor speaks on a topic and it is on opposition to a political stance one has... you quickly see why the true allegance is. Of course, provided the message is within orthodoxy. The Bible often cuts to the hearts of both political sides. All of them really.
I'm going to guess that your dad is a baby boomer
we have seen this playbook
I'm a 'moderate', I don't believe in parties except for my party affiliation
campaigns as a centrist then votes like a left radical
is he pro life or pro abortion?
his populist rhetoric against billionaires is so novel, never heard that before
from his campaign page:
Jesus's primary concern when flipping the tables was that they turned the temple into a place of commerce rather than worship. It wasn't about fighting injustice (or at least, not the political or economic kind.) If Jesus came to fight political injustice, he would have fought against the Romans.
100%
Jesus was not a rabbi, not the way we understand rabbi today and since the destruction of the temple in 70 AD
Not sure what you mean by that. He was a teacher. That's what a Rabbi is. He wasn't a Rabbi like any of his day... he was the Christ. Want is the relevance of this comment?
He did go to synagogue and practiced the faith of Moses. But he also condemned the religious leaders of his day.
What is interesting is that even though Jesus didn't use violence he was a threat to both the Jewish and Roman governments. And his followers eventually overturned the Roman empire by following His teachings.
The root of our prolems is still sin. The idolatry of the state being our ring of power will always inslave us. Order and governance are not contray to Christianity but when the state is exalted to the solution to most of our problems we have missed the mark.
The left Christian is seduced by socialism and leaving to secular systems what should be the work of the church. As the church has become smaller in our lives the state has become large. An idol.
There are many idols but the state / politics is one I rarely hear people acknowledge.
I asked Lumo:
1. Public‑Education Proposals1. Public‑Education Proposals
Source: Public‑Education page
2. Freedom, Family & Faith Proposals2. Freedom, Family & Faith Proposals
Source: Freedom, Family & Faith pagejamestalarico.com
3. Additional Issue Areas (brief mentions)3. Additional Issue Areas (brief mentions)
How to view the full detailsHow to view the full details
You can explore each issue page directly:
These pages contain the exact wording of the proposals and additional context about why Talarico supports them. If you need more depth on any specific item (e.g., legislative text, budget estimates), let me know and I can dig further.
if you only support left wing positions, then you are not a centrist
edit: https://jamestalarico.com/why-im-running/
no policy proposals, only platitudes about bringing people together
and the billionaires are the real enemy
how many billionaires in America? about 800? maybe 1000?
300 million 'ordinary' folk vs 1000 billionaires
I like our odds except billionaires are not the real enemy
if you don't watch the discussion it's gonna be hard to have an informed conversation
I don't want to have a conversation, that ship has sailed
https://jamestalarico.com/why-im-running/
no policy proposals, only platitudes about bringing people together
and the billionaires are the real enemy
how many billionaires in America? about 800? maybe 1000?
300 million 'ordinary' folk vs 1000 billionaires
I like our odds except billionaires are not the real enemy
Being against ICE is the only rallying point they have. This seems like bad advice.
If ICE is the only rallying cry they have... they are screwed.
Maybe they'll think of something new, but they were still trying to rally around ACA subsidies just a few months ago.
Affordability is the winner in my opinion.
1000 percent
LOL.
We are surrounded by absurdity.
Horseshoe theory
Yeah... kinda. But also when you want the state to solve problems or run things you give up freedom. You create a police state. Seems inevitable to me.
you mean like immigration?
Should we solve this problem ourselves w/o the state? I'm all for it if the state would not get in the way
I have lots of ideas on how to eliminate illegal immigration if the state gave me immunity from prosecution
Property rights. Its all you need. But the state will not allow that. I'm not protesting ICE. Nor suggesting open borders. Just the state is the root problem.
What is happening now with ICE was inevitable
which is also absurd and incoherent
why is this funny? I don't get the punchline
Its funny to me because it is true. Many people that are today cheering on the e forcement of immigration policies and rules will not be happy when these same "officers of the law" are weaponized against them by the blue team.
That's why it's funny to me. No clue if the anon shares my perspective. I'm not in support of the anti-ICE morons but I'm also not happy to see federal policing of any kind. Just as I dont think anyone should get stolen money handed to them by the feds or state gov.
Of course their is corruption and people abusing the system. If we individuals had actual libety we could eliminate these problems. The state creates them and then offers solutions which always equal more power.
The answer is always more state.
To be clear. The left is more wrong on this. They are more wrong but the right broadly isn't talking about the root problem.
Stealing from productive people and giving it to others. Not enforcing property rights. A government owning land and not enforcing their own laws. If you agree with a state and democracy but want to selectively enforce law then you have an incoherent philosophy.
That's the left and some on the right. We can't have nice things because of political systems being used to solve problems like this.
Not surprising
We have different priorities: real problems vs hypothetical problems
Very real problems. Just not fully realized. This thing right now. ICE cleaning up decades of state incoherent policy.
The pendulum will swing. The police state is who will come for us. The same state people are cheering on.
ICE has one mission: arrest detain and deport illegal undocumented aliens
edit: I support drug legalization but I don't interfere with DEA operations