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"I'd quicker abandon bitcoin and go back to fiat!"

4349 sats \ 35 comments \ @jasonb 6 Oct bitcoin

"I'd quicker abandon bitcoin and go back to fiat!"

That stopped the whole conversation. In fact, it stopped the next conversation down the table as well. It kind of felt cathartic. I've wanted to say it for weeks, but the right conditions finally converged for the mountain to blow its top.

Now, mind you, this was in the context of drinking some beers and watching some rugby after a conference. It wasn't actually all that dramatic. I wasn't saying I'm going back to fiat. Nor was I dogging bitcoin. But I was trying to express that I consider myself an even bigger opponent of WhatsApp than of fiat. I stand by my refusal to use WhatsApp, no matter the price, as we bitcoiners likewise choose many inconveniences in a fiat era.

"Everyone in South Africa uses WhatsApp."

I assumed that meant a lot of people in South Africa use WhatsApp. I now am indeed convinced that EVERYONE in South Africa uses WhatsApp. Moreover, there is no discussion at all of potential concerns. It's been very inconvenient not using it, both for me and folks that need to communicate with me. I found this quirky at first, but it began to grate on me with more and more calls to, "just get WhatsApp." Discussion of the network effect of using WhatsApp over Signal or Telegram started to annoy me. Admiration of their business model actively frustrated me.

Fiat currently has a stronger international network effect than WhatsApp. I understand the average South African thinking that the network effect is important, but at the aforementioned hang, I was with hardcore bitcoiners. Even the, "Fix the money, fix the world" crowd didn't seem to understand why I didn't like this tool of the devil. I reminded them of Meta's track record on manipulating people and social irresponsibility, and the response was, "would you stop driving VW because someone hurt themselves being irresponsible with their car"? But the analogy fails. Volkswagen does not, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, monitor my -

Purchases
Location
Contacts
Identifiers (whatever that means!)
Diagnostics
Financial Info!
Contact Info
User Content
Usage Data
Search History

Most members of my family don't have that much on me...and this is just what they're admitting to tracking. So yeah, even though I don't know anyone that's died in a VW crash and I do know lots of people that turned into raging narcissists and sociopaths because of Facebook, if the tables were turned, I still wouldn't be as concerned (although I know cars are still tracking some of these things).

Empathy

Speaking of being a sociopath, or rather trying not to be one, here's the point. South Africans have bigger fish to fry. I am meeting lots of people here from Zimbabwe. Black or white, I haven't met a single person from Zimbabwe that doesn't instantly understand the purpose of bitcoin. Meanwhile, the South African rand is depreciating fast against the dollar, and that's not even really the biggest concern here. So I get why bitcoin is popular in this part of the world and Signal isn't such a big deal.

In the US, neither are really a big deal. If you know some journalists, you'll know some people into Signal. If you know some human rights activists (or let's face it, finance/crypto bros), you'll know some people into bitcoin. But SMS data is affordable to most Americans, and we all know people that turned into basket cases because of Facebook. So, just like I may need to work on my tolerance for WhatsApp users in SA, maybe we can all have a little more patience with no-coiners who still live in un-popped fiat bubbles. For every one that harasses you about getting with the program, there are assuredly a few that are gritting their teeth and bearing with the inconveniences of dealing with a person obsessed with freedom tech.

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244 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 6 Oct

If you know some journalists, you'll know some people into Signal.

One of my pensioned friends in the EU proudly explained to me that WhatsApp is surveillance tech and that their whole art class has now migrated to Signal. Then we had a conversation about "chat control".

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @jasonb OP 6 Oct

One of my pensioned friends in the EU proudly explained to me that WhatsApp is surveillance tech and that their whole art class has now migrated Signal.

That's awesome!

Then we had a conversation about "chat control".

Yeah, sadly, despite this post, I still need more of this type of instruction...

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 6 Oct

I think that it will be very hard for us (us as in people that lived on the internet before the general availability of it and are generally a bit more aware of some of the privacy dynamics) to come back from losing this battle. I fear that with every step of the way, we will lose as much as we gain.

For Bitcoin, this isn't a huge problem, though it will make it harder to offset corporate and government domination with real decentralization coming from real people taking control. The incentive for bitcoin is still fairly visible whenever there is a "financial crisis" - i.e. when the govs and/or bankers mess up.

For freedomtech in general, it's much harder, because the benefits only become clear for most people when it's too late.

92 sats \ 1 reply \ @SimpleStacker 6 Oct

I think I also react very negatively to everyone being on the same dominant social media platform. But for me, I think it is less a concern for privacy, and something more aesthetic. I know this because I don't really get that upset about privacy in other domains, so why do I react so negatively to social media platform dominance?

I think aesthetically, I just don't like the idea of too much conformity. I don't like it when people do something simply because others are doing it. I think it's just ugly. It may be practical, but I just don't like the way it feels. I feel this way for smaller things too... like, I don't like how some people start getting into sports because other people are into sports, or wear a certain style of clothing just because others are doing it. And I sometimes actively rebel against that.

So, yeah... I feel the same way as you, but more as an aesthetic reaction than a real concern for privacy.

30 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 6 Oct

There's a bit of a fine line here and I think it's more about authenticity than conformity.

What's ugly is people pretending to like something popular or regurgitating views that they haven't really considered.

92 sats \ 1 reply \ @0xbitcoiner 6 Oct

I stand by my refusal to use WhatsApp, no matter the price,

That's me! Even if I wanted to, I couldn’t do it, I don’t have a smartphone, and to have a Wap account you need a phone number on a smartphone. Honestly, it’s a good thing — this way I never fall into temptation. Ahaha

33 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 6 Oct

I want to say I'm jealous, but I know that ultimately we all decide where we're at on this spectrum, so I'll just say that's awesome! I look back VERY fondly on pre-cellphone days.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 25 Oct

As the one South African that hasn't used WhatsApp since before it was bought by Facebook (before it was Meta), thank you for sharing my frustration so accurately!

What has "worked" for me to get people onto Signal is a two pronged approach:

Refuse to install WhatsApp or anything else. If you want to contact me, do so on Signal. If you don't want to use Signal, I guess you don't really need to contact me.
Challenge their unwillingness to install Signal. Many will complain that they don't want to install yet another app. To them I ask to open their phone, so we can have a look at what apps they have installed. I bet them that there are more than a few useless ones, and perhaps even a few actively harmful ones. If they're happy keeping those, why would they mind installing another one? Especially when it holds some real benefits to them. No-one has ever taken me up on that bet. Most install Signal.

I put "worked" in quotes, because obviously it doesn't always work. It has worked in all the cases I care enough about though. My entire family and just about all my friends are on Signal.

Then I found the local Bitcoin communities, with all of the interesting players already on Signal. That's really great. To my surprise I still find that those very same people - active Signal users - will still use WhatsApp, even for technical projects, rather than insisting that the one or two non-Signal users install Signal.

I sincerely don't understand how a community that holds sovereignty as a prime value, is so quick to capitulate to these network effects. On services that do not share our values. And I don't mean just WhatsApp. I mean GitHub (Microsoft) for development, Google email, docs and mailing lists, Xitter and other Big Social, etc. And all of that when perfectly good substitutes are readily available.

Sure, we need to account for the network effect and meet people where they are. But aren't we also supposed to show them a better way, like we're doing with Bitcoin?

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @brave 7 Oct

You’re my hero for saying no to WhatsApp! Meta’s a surveillance machine, and people just hand over their lives without a second thought. The list of what they track - purchases, location, contacts, everything - should be a wake-up call, but nope, network effect wins. It’s the same reason people stick with fiat: convenience over freedom. I’m with you on Signal, and I think your bitcoin analogy nails it

50 sats \ 18 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

Tox is more secure than Signal. Tox is true decentralised encrypted privacy immune to surveillance.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 11 Oct

Tox is alpha software and has not been audited

https://wiki.tox.chat/users/faq#warning

Simplex is a mature and arguably vastly more secure solution

Simplex is by far the best messenger available

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 12 Oct

Simplex is a private profit driven company probably working as a front for the NSA...and certainly prone to government demands for information unlike Tox which is truly decentrlalized and community driven.

50 sats \ 2 replies \ @carter 6 Oct

what makes it more secure? I know signals group messaging isn't great but I thought the ratchet protocol was gold standard

100 sats \ 1 reply \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

For Signal you provide your phone number to use it. With Tox you don't. Tox is entirely decentralised. Signal isn't.

35 sats \ 0 replies \ @carter 6 Oct

You can have usernames now so you dont share your number but yeah i got you

50 sats \ 11 replies \ @88b0c423eb 6 Oct

What's tox? share a link

100 sats \ 10 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

https://tox.chat/

0 sats \ 9 replies \ @88b0c423eb 6 Oct

Thanks but I still prefer xmpp and simplex

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

You are free to give your phone number and device identity to a centralised data base that is inherently vulnerable to state intrusion, but don't kid yourself that it is private and secure.

50 sats \ 7 replies \ @88b0c423eb 6 Oct

xmpp and simplex don't require phone number neither device id, and you can self-host. But apparently your answer was not for me.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 6 Oct

my mistake I thought you meant Signal. What is so good about simplex and xmpp? As a company Simplex is inherently centralised and thus prone to state requests for data.

50 sats \ 5 replies \ @Daedalus 7 Oct

You're really wrong about that simplex critique. Servers are all self hostable and all simplex hosted servers have onion addresses when you do need to use them (someone sending you doesn't have their own server). offering network layer privacy and decentralization.

A great list of trusted non simplex servers can be found on Nowhere by Nihilist: http://nowherejezfoltodf4jiyl6r56jnzintap5vyjlia7fkirfsnfizflqd.onion/simplex-servers.html

Spin up your own on a vps easily, or better yet behind an onion address only on a local machine and you can talk to anybody with nearly perfect plausible deniability. XMPP simply cannot offer this level of privacy due to it's feudal federation style of decentralization.

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21 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 6 Oct

Oh man! Rabbit hole time!

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @grayruby 6 Oct

WhatsApp is brutal. I admit I used to use it years ago but probably haven’t used it for a decade.

40 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 6 Oct

😬😬😬😬 I actually still have a Facebook profile… I don’t think I’ve logged in in years though and really just kept it so no one else could be the fake me easily.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @Kayzone 6 Oct

That's a solid take, honest and relatable. It’s a good reminder that choosing freedom tech like Bitcoin (or avoiding WhatsApp) often comes with real inconveniences, but it’s all part of standing by your principles.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @guerratotal 6 Oct

Well, for me personally, it's a little difficult to abandon many of those social media platforms, not because I like them or spend hours on them, but because in my case, since I live outside my country and left my parents behind, my source of communication with them is through Messenger or WhatsApp, depending on how they work at the time due to the terrible internet in Cuba. They're actually older now, and it took them a while to adapt to using those types of platforms, so imagine teaching them how to use other platforms.

The issue for me is the day-to-day, and showing reality to others. My wife loves looking at Instagram. Little by little, I've been teaching her not to post so many photos, not to expose our children, to only look for things that are useful and important for us, our health, etc., to filter things better and not live off the illusions and "perfect lives" those networks portray.

It's a daily process, nothing more.

24 sats \ 0 replies \ @jasonb OP 6 Oct

Yeah, at the end of the day, I'm hoping the main point that I'm conveying here is that everybody has their reason for standing where they do in these spectrums, and we can't read each other's brains to really know why. I'm willing to accept the inconvenience of not using WhatsApp because I can. It's just that, inconvenient. If it meant not being able to communicate with a loved one, or putting a strain on my marriage, that would change the whole game for me too.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @pappasbland 7 Oct

This was interesting, thanks for sharing these insights. I too hate Whatsapp, and any app that requires a phone number for that matter. -Tom

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @035736735e 6 Oct outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.