Do You Guys Really Spend Bitcoin? \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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393 sats \ 19 comments \ @spiderman 4 Sep bitcoin

The HODLER's dilemma and geography, both getting to me. Yes, I hold a few Sats, run my own knots node and eager to contribute to the Bitcoin eco-system.

But in the past few days, I have seen a few contents around Bitcoin that advises us to spend Bitcoin as well, as, otherwise, it will forever remain a speculative asset and eventually will just die. It may or may not be true, but makes me sad thinking about the status quo.

I am in Hong Kong (not a local, and not entirely by choice...long story) which is probably one of the worst places in the world to be a Bitcoiner, except mainland China. On-ramp/off-ramp is full of friction, and since half of the GDP of this city-state comes from established trad-fi, their regulatory capture prevents any meaningful adoption on the merchant side.

Then, the problem is, in most places (likely not only Hong Kong), the number of Bitcoin friendly merchants is so few, that for any specific goods or services, they got a near monopoly or duopoly. If I am just swiping my master-card, then the merchants will obviously compete among themselves for my business, to give me whatever I need.

But not so if I want to spend my Bitcoin, obviously. Rather, the handful of merchants that are there, seem to charge an exorbitant premium to Bitcoiners who want the privilege of spending their Sats, and many Bitcoiners are ready to do it to support the eco-system. Basically, it all comes down to the number of people on two sides of the table, whichever side got fewer actors (BTC friendly merchants), each actor got more leverage.

And that tells me there are far more Bitcoiners than Bitcoin friendly businesses, which creates the power imbalance?

As an icing on the top, even those so called Bitcoin friendly merchants, just do a spot conversion to Fiat with an intermediary, passing the amount charged by the intermediary to customers. So it seems to benefit largely the exchanges.

So, may be my view is more pessimistic being in Asia, and hopefully the landscape is better in the freer economies...but is there any way to ascertain that adoption is really growing to use Bitcoin as money (which means both store of value and medium of exchange)?

And is there a market driven way to counter the lack of merchant adoption? Let's be honest, no government will ever help us, no government will ever mandate (or even make it easier for) merchants to take Bitcoin...so that needs to happen more organically, free market driven way for merchant adoption to grow?

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100 sats \ 5 replies \ @evankaloudis 4 Sep

Why do you still have fiat?

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @spiderman OP 4 Sep

Because I need to pay my bills which do not accept Bitcoin, not at least here in Hong Kong (hoping it is different in the west).

And holding Bitcoin and selling it to pay Fiat means I eat the spread...(nobody will exchange both ways at the sport rate). Given the spread I have to tolerate, it makes no sense to hold Bitcoin for less than at least three years to be in the red, that too depends on the cycle timing. In other words, I can put into Bitcoin roughly what I do not need for a few years at least. Luckily, I have a decent job and have that luxury to think a few yeas ahead, but I understand many do not.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Sep

Here a list of how to pay bills: https://darth-coin.github.io/beginner/pay-with-bitcoin-en.html

I have to pay bills...

That is just a fiat maxi excuse.

60 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 4 Sep

Pretentious toxic maxi grinch.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ca 4 Sep

Some people's time is valuable. Why jump through hoops.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Sep

The right question!

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 4 Sep

In that case, you could consider spending bitcoin on digital goods that can be delivered anywhere in the world. I use Bitrefill to buy gift cards; I don't know if these cards only work in the US or internationally as well. I think you can buy eSims there, too.

Another thing to consider is becoming the change you want to see: accept Bitcoin for your own goods and services that you can provide, and don't charge an exhorbitant markup

14 sats \ 1 reply \ @fiatbad 4 Sep

I love this. It's my favorite cocktail conversation topic (which is why I have no friends).

First off: Yes I spend Bitcoin A LOT. But I purposely seek out merchants who accept it, and I order a lot online. I choose to vacation only in countries with high adoption, and use BTCMap.org to find local merchants when traveling.

A few thoughts:

The internet is also highly restricted in China, is it not? Yet, the internet is far too big of idea and has far too much global network-effect that the Chinese government can't stop it. I would bet that China contains a lot of people who know how to use VPN's, Tor, etc, in order to get around their government's attempt to control. The technology is more powerful than the government, and the people outnumber the government also.

Bitcoin is just as big of idea as the internet. It is built in a similar, decentralized manner. It has a massive global network effect. I'm tired of hearing Bitcoiners citing regulatory reasons for why Bitcoin adoption isn't happening. The real reason is because we've allowed Bitcoin to become a mostly KYC'd asset that can't technically scale to be a currency, even with the current L2's. Bitcoiners happily use fiat in their daily lives, and aren't prioritizing scaling solutions.

Governments can't regulate and suppress something like Bitcoin, or the internet. Unless the people allow them to. Which is exactly what's happening.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @spiderman OP 4 Sep

The internet is mostly free in Hong Kong.

I choose to vacation only in countries with high adoption, and use BTCMap.org to find local merchants when traveling.

Yeah, but adoption means when the Bitcoin spending moves to more basic expenses rather than discretionary or as far distant from needs as vacation. I am hoping soon, at least in some countries, you can buy a house, settle medical bills, fill up your gas tank, buy a laptop, pay for electricity with Bitcoin. I mean the most basic expenses, not going to a cafe in Switzerland (but still happy to hear you support them).

As I was saying, I just feel there is not enough competition among merchants for my Sats (comparable to my master card), hence those who do accept, enjoy an unfairly high pricing power. Hope things can change.

7 sats \ 0 replies \ @kilianbuhn 4 Sep

(every time its possible 🙈)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 4 Sep

Yes. Use spaces protocol, it makes using bitcoin much easier. Spend and replace what you use and you'll never reduce your stack.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 4 Sep

I am in Hong Kong (not a local, and not entirely by choice...long story) which is probably one of the worst places in the world to be a Bitcoiner, except mainland China.

What? HK is meant to be amazing for buying KYC free sats. Somewhere around the Chung King Mansion/Mirador Mansion.

If there aren't many merchants, you can always use gift cards.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 4 Sep

In most jurisdictions for a merchant to adopt they will have to overcome significant resistance from their accountants and possibly risk debanking. How many consumers want to pay with BTC? SFA. And then there is tax compliance.

For most businesses it is simply more trouble than its worth to accept Bitcoin. The few who do accept I believe mostly are doing so on a principled basis.

So for the few merchants who accept I say support them- they are not enjoying an unfair marketplace advantage- they are sticking their necks out against considerable resistance and obstruction from the fiat debt slavery power brokers who still dominate governments and business circles.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 4 Sep

My experience is that Bitcoin accepting merchants are often exceptionally good especially in the area of food - When traveling I absolutely prioritise going to Bitcoin accepting food outlets and the result is usually very good. Yes it is a major problem so few places are accepting Bitcoin but when you can, support those who are!

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @spiderman OP 4 Sep

Really? I do not have enough spending experience (so far have focussed on accumulation and do not have a lot to afford the luxury of spending yet), but why do you think so?

For merchants that are easily comparable, it is often a lossy proposition. For example, the only two sites I know where I can book an international flight tickets via direct bitcoin payment? Travala and Bitcointravel.

Both seem to charge about 10% more for the same route on same day compared to the airline's own site. On top of that, Bitcointravel cannot even find the flights on most routes (I do not know if it is because they did not enter an agreement with the corresponding airline as third party agent).

Given that Bitcoin's ethos would resonate so well with the digital nomad, global traveller type crowd (who should be attracted to border free money, no currency exchange hassle), I thought the air travel market would top adoption over any other industry, and by now there will be a dozen travel agents begging for my sats. Nah...the old fashioned master card rules.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 4 Sep

I would certainly choose to pay in fiat if the resultant price is lower and the service the same as in your example with airlines and online booking but in my experience when it comes to food Bitcoin accepting outlets are well above average in value and quality.

Online air travel sales are ultimately big business and any middleman must pay the airline in fiat so that is not the type of business i would expect Bitcoin to have any significant advantage- in fact airlines are almost always themselves highly debt leveraged and effectively owned by either the banks or governments if not both.

Smaller local grassroots businesses who are accepting Bitcoin are my preference to support and my experience with them has almost always been very good. When traveling to a new destination it helps to narrow down the often overwhelming number of food outlet options significantly down to a manageable few.

How many restaurants in Hong Kong accept Bitcoin? My guess is it would be in the single figures- so go out and try them!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 4 Sep

Yes. All the time. https://darth-coin.github.io/beginner/pay-with-bitcoin-en.html

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 4 Sep

Yes.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @brave 4 Sep

It’s tough balancing the urge to hold for long-term value with the push to spend and drive adoption. Your situation in Hong Kong sounds frustrating, especially with the regulatory hurdles and lack of merchant options.

You’re not wrong about the power imbalance; fewer Bitcoin-friendly merchants definitely gives them leverage, and the fiat conversion fees are a real pain.