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0 sats \ 15 replies \ @piggy 19 Aug \ parent \ on: Locked 1 BTC until 2030 bitcoin
So you’re suggesting he put his coin into the command prompt terminal?
No. I'm saying to use a timelocked address instead for the goal of locking some coin until date X. That timlocked address can be controlled by a hardware wallet.
If someone were to do that, they could at the same time profit from using those locked coins in cold storage as a fidelity bond to get free coinjoins and earn fees as makers in JoinMarket. It's only those other coins that are “at risk” from being on a hot wallet.
But even the risk of having them in a “hot wallet” is orders of magnitude smaller than giving them away to some company and hoping to get them back at some point.
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Fair point on timelocked addresses, but a quick reality check:
A timelock (CLTV/CSV) only enforces time, you can’t do “unlock when price > X” in Bitcoin script without introducing an external oracle (e.g., via DLCs). That brings liveness/trust assumptions, if the oracle is down, wrong, or censored, you may be stuck until a fallback (if any) activates. And in @chebibu’s case the price condition seems central: not everyone wants to die with their BTC unspent, and many have a target price at which they’d sell. That’s exactly the limitation, pure timelocks can’t encode market-driven conditions natively, you either accept oracle risk/complexity or choose a different strategy.
Even if you have the skills to build a safe timelocked address, self-custody introduces different risks: mis-setting the lock time (height vs. timestamp), wallet/tooling quirks, the seed being stolen physically or, if you use a passphrase, forgotten passwords (both of which have happened to people I personally know), device failure, etc. It’s not plug-and-play and definitely not suited to people who haven’t done it before.
On JoinMarket: yes, the fidelity-bonded coins can stay locked/cold, but the maker coins live in a hot wallet. Those are the funds exposed to operational and malware risk. Yield isn’t guaranteed and may not compensate for that risk for everyone.
We’re a new service and haven’t earned your trust or reputation yet. We’ve spent the last 2 years and countless BTC building and hardening this, but we know trust is earned over time. We also believe a large share of the 8B people in the world won’t, or can’t, self-custody at scale for many reasons (operational complexity, recovery challenges, and hard limits like block space). Our aim is to responsibly serve that segment while still respecting and supporting advanced self-custody users.
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I think some of the pushback you are getting here is that
timelock generally implies that it is enforced by code, not something that can be reversed or changed by a human. As far as I can tell, the timelocks you use for piggy can be unlocked if piggy the company needs to unlock them.Perhaps it would be helpful if you described how the timelock is enforced: If you have a multisig somewhere with the user's bitcoin, how are the keys to this multisig "timelocked"? Is there an HSM server that signs the transactions and that cannot be altered by piggy? How do you guarantee the timelock?
If the timelock is only enforced by piggy's protocols (which can be changed) then perhaps timelock is not the right term here. (And also, I don't understand why I'd ask another person to hold my bitcoin just so I can't get at it for some amount of time...)
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(And also, I don't understand why I'd ask another person to hold my bitcoin just so I can't get at it for some amount of time...)
This - this - this.....
If the hold point is because you don't trust yourself to hold your Bitcoin safely for 5 years...you probably should work on that...just another beautiful feature of Bitcoin as a bearer asset....he who holds it...controls it... and when you give that up to someone else?
Buyer beware
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You come here selling NFTs and “trust me bro”s. You are not “Bitcoin only”, you are a spammer, a scammer and shitcoiner. You will never earn the trust of Bitcoiners with such obvious faulty and scammy products.
Delete this persona if you want to try again. This kind of trash won’t fly on SN.
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We appreciate constructive criticism, the line between hate and love is thin. Unfortunately, this isn’t about you. And just a heads-up: what you’re doing isn’t activism (you may think it is), you’re just very angry, and that kind of anger hurts you. Sorry!
On the other hand, we’ve built a great product the Bitcoin community hasn’t seen in a long time. It just needs time to sink in, it’s new, and not everyone will get it right away. Good luck.
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The problem here is that you're talking to the wrong audience. We are building a similar product in Africa at Shield Bitcoin Corporation (SBC), but in a better way.
At the end, Bitcoin self-custody is never going to be for everyone. This is the truth, and this is what so many "hardcore Bitcoiners" (who believe people like us are shitcoiners) have failed to understand. So when you say it, it begins to sound like you're a shitcoiner. I've lived my whole life on Bitcoin since 2017, when I completely got the light. Doesn't have any bank accounts to date.
I wonder if Hal Finney was a shitcoiner for predicting that there would be a time when Banks would offer Bitcoin-backed currencies. I strongly believe that he saw through the future, knowing very well that for Bitcoin to scale, some level of custody will come in. The only important thing is "transparent custody," where there's complete and verifiable proof of reserve at every point in time. Hal also mentioned that some banks will have verifiable proof of reserves, while some may not. What we should be fighting for is that "Custodial Bitcoin solutions that are in line with Bitcoin ethos must widely adopt the system of 'autonomous verifiable proof of reserves'"
The important thing is that as time goes on, people begin to learn and can, from any day, choose to self-custody when they've learned enough. Bitcoin is here to stay for life.
We have hundreds of people queued up and already interested in what we are building at SBC. I actively speak to many people daily about time locking their Bitcoins; the biggest barrier they face is safely keeping their keys.
And, no, these people are not Bitcoiners. They're shitcoiners, average persons who hardly understand how this tech works, who we have managed to convince on why Bitcoin is the ultimate money and savings tool for them.
One thing is that this type of solution actually helps propagate Bitcoin adoption, and use as money more than all the Hardcore Bitcoin messages we have online put together.
There should be a starting point for people who are skeptical about using Bitcoin, especially because of the ability to lose the keys, and even the price action. The first step is to get them in, with a constant education. Then, with time, a lot of them will learn and eventually decide to self-custody their coins. This is the option we have in our solution, open to users any day, any time.
Some may even never bother about self-custodying their Bitcoin, and at the end, it is fine if that is their choice.
Delusion will be anyone thinking that the whole world will eventually self-custody their Bitcoins. Bitcoiners die too, and when they do, they most likely lose their stash permanently because most time nobody knows where they stored their keys. This is not necessarily good for Bitcoin. Except we're ready to fight a war of "Increasing Bitcoin supply Cap" in the future, when we have lost almost all the existing ones due to poor estate planning. (A debate I'm certain most hardcore users around then will frown at).
So, I guess you should take your message to the right audience. The people who need the solution you built (and we are building) are not anons on SN. Perhaps you're here because you want to see if you can get some validation from the community. You certainly wouldn't get that.
Your audience is the average worker out there who has lived more than half his/her life on Fiat, and is constantly ripped off their sweat through rampaging inflation. And mind you, it starts and should start with hardcore education. If you jump in and just tell them that they should save Bitcoins in your app, you certainly will become like one of the shitcoiners or scammers because now, you're not telling them the truth. You must first educate with sound Bitcoin knowledge while telling them what your product offers. This way, they learn that they can be their banks any day, any time, even though they might choose to trust your solution for the time being. The important thing is remaining open with the truth through and through.
And mind you, the moment you introduce any form of "NFT, Ordinals, Tokens...etc", you have permanently derailed and become a full-time scammer.
In our solution, we also have an "Emergency Button" that saves the day should the government come clamping. You might consider that.
At the end, the goal is to have Bitcoin in every household in the world. That is the way Bitcoin truly becomes what we all want it to be - Money!
One of my unpopular beliefs is that "People must first own Bitcoin before they can use it as money" - So by every means, let us get people to own Bitcoins first.
Let the Bitcoin Stay with you - Borrowing @DarthCoin's motto.
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At the end, Bitcoin self-custody is never going to be for everyone
I agree with that. I also want to see more "uncle Jim" LN banks (as i described in this guide).
The only thing is that these "private LN banks" should educate very well their users and DO NOT lie them or trying to fool them with mumbo-jumbo language. Tell them from the beginning that this is NOT a self custody / self responsibility solution and they should NOT use it with all their money, just small amounts for regular day to day expenses. A simple custodial account in a private "uncle Jim" LN bank is just OK, if you keep it in control.
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Awesome guide you got there. And just like you reiterated, the very important thing is speaking the truth and teaching new onboarders everything they need to to know.
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Awesome post! Hal had great vision, and we totally share it. I’ve included his BT post link here somewhere. The “Maxis”, as someone called them, might not even know who he is, they just repeat one thing: self-custody. I wonder why they’re here on a centralized forum instead of posting on Nostr, maybe because Nostr isn’t for everyone and, as a decentralized system, it has huge usability issues. Package it differently and they’d probably call it a “shitcoin” anyway 🤪. Trying to tell them that, one day, an AI bank will custody their Bitcoin better than any human, including themselves can, or that Piggy will act as an intermediary for buying a tokenized house, with the seller depositing the tokenized title into Piggy and the buyer receiving a mortgage is pointless. That day is very close, and we’re heading in that direction because someone has to do it anyway.
Good luck with your project!
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Thank you.
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You have not built a “great product”. You have built a honeypot scam that will lose people’s coins. As dozens have said in this thread, there are much much better ways to do this without the custodial risk.
You can’t even acknowledge you have designed a faulty and negligent product; and you expect people to give you their sats.
And sell them NFTs!!
Hell yes l am angry. People need to be defended against scammers like you.
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