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100 sats \ 6 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 27 Jul \ parent \ on: The Increasing Impact of Bitcoin’s Ancient Supply bitcoin
I guess its a grey area and there are a wide range of situations and opinions on it.
But imo the most likely candidates to seek tax havens to avoid tax will be bringing wealth they gained as a result of their original citizenship and seeking to avoid returning any of that wealth to its origins.
In some cases that could be seen as selfish ungrateful greed.
In other cases it may be justified as escaping unjust and tyrannical governance.
Each situation will be different.
Personally while I do not like some of my governments actions I feel lucky to live in a country where tax funds free education, health care and universal basic support for the elderly and infirm. Where I have been successful I am happy to pay tax to support those less successful.
I believe that human wealth is based upon collective effort and taxes are a natural part of wealth building...that of course requires that we also participate in politics where we see the wrong decisions and allocations occurring, rather than opting out and re locating to somewhere we do not participate in the collective process of governance and taxation.
I don't know about that. I've personally been able to help more others, have more (what I think good) influence on politicians, and made much more impact since I opted out than before that when I was stuck with a majority that let themselves be gaslit by false promises time after time while squandering opportunities to make things better and make that last.
I think these choices are individual ones and there is no way that as an outsider to the person that makes the decision one can truly judge. So many lives are complex and people make choices - choices that you would maybe not make - but that do not make these people inferior in any way just because they have a different perspective. If everyone was the same, life would be boring af.
So let's keep an open mind. In my experience, the majority of people that migrate have good reasons for it, and it doesn't often come lightly. These are life-changing decisions. I also know a lot of people where I feel that they're probably making a mistake. But that is for them to find out. No need to be hostile; otherwise, how will we learn?
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I agree it is a big decision to relocate to a country based upon the premise of reducing or eliminating your exposure to tax.
In some cases as I have already said it may be justified.
There is a point where government incompetence and corruption will seem beyond repair and flight is justified.
In many others though I suspect the major motives are selfish.
If you remove yourself from the economy and society which raised and enriched you to escape contributing some of your gains via taxation, you are abandoning that society to some degree for selfish motives...and your incentive to be involved in the politics of that original nation will be inherently much reduced.
I am son of an immigrant who sought a better life- away from the crippling class structure and post war decline of Britain.
Here in New Zealand he had opportunities that would have been very unlikely if not impossible to realise back in the UK.
But here in NZ we still tax progressively recognising that those who enjoy the most success from our economy are best positioned to contribute to the cost of government- there are often and increasingly loud cries from the most wealthy and their lobbyists that if we raise taxes too high they will flee somewhere else - I say good riddance to them - we do not need the selfish greedy rich pricks who refuse to acknowledge the origin of their wealth is largely in the economy and governance that enabled it. Yes they often worked hard but it was in the context of a democratic and lawful environment enjoying significant economic and cultural privilege relative to most nations of the world.
In most cases these threats are anyway hollow bluster as these peoples wealth is mostly vested in assets and property located here and not easily relocated.
But if they do choose to leave their arrogance and greed is imo, best relocated elsewhere to fester and spoil whatever locale is unfortunate enough to receive them and their kind.
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I don't know about that - I think you have much more faith in the collective power of a nation than I have, and ascribe much more success to the collective than I do.
I do strongly believe in collaboration and that we need to work together so that we can have synergies, and everything becomes easier. But I'm skeptical of governments, I don't believe democracy to be great at all - even though I am painfully aware it's the best we've got - and I'm extremely allergic to corruption.
From my perspective, the smaller the government and the smaller the burden - up to a point, the better the outcomes. However, I don't believe that achievable with democracy. As such, I've opted out. I still help people. I still care. I still even talk to politicians and help them. But, that is my choice - I don't owe anyone anything.
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I think like many on this site you underestimate the importance of government to economic outcomes.
If you study history it shows governments play a massive role in economic development and ongoing progress, or decline.
There has never been sustained wealth and prosperity without relatively good government.
Nations, like people, are ever changing and subject to changing circumstances- the competition for land, resources, capital, infrastructure and technology exists in a context of constant change.
USA has enjoyed global dominance since WW2 and benefited from its geography and distance from the warring powers of Europe. USA was built upon the opportunities for development which came with the industrial era, and the ideals which people coming from Europe sought to build a new society and economy.
Today China is becoming dominate in global trade and resource hegemony.
All other nations are to some extent subservient tribute states.
We all live in this global context- some born however into significant advantage in terms of opportunity and wealth- the majority of the world are born into autocracy and entrenched corruption.
I am in no position to judge your choices but am free to express my opinion that mostly tax havens are sought out by those who put themselves above others.
The vast majority of people globally do not have the option to relocate to a tax haven.
The vast majority do not enjoy such wealth.
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If you study history it shows governments play a massive role in economic development and ongoing progress, or decline.
Correct.
Today China is becoming dominate in global trade and resource hegemony. All other nations are to some extent subservient tribute states.
Not sure if that is correct, but let's note it as an assumption that it is.
Why is this desirable? Why would one comply with a system where there are states upon states, bureaucracies upon bureaucracies, where the top dogs always are the biggest exploiters of other, less powerful human beings, if not domestic then abroad. The only reasons I can figure out to comply with such a situation, are because you believe this is good and/or you aspire to be that top dog, or because you feel like the only way to beat the system is from the inside.
Personally, I find it an undesirable situation, and I don't believe I can beat the system from the inside unless I become like the exploiting politician, which would create massive moral dilemmas for me. Leaving me only one option: being outside of the system and working from there. In my case, this means I'm working on open source software and FOSS advocacy from the outside in. Not everyone should do this, of course. I'm not advertising it as such, because I think it's not useful for most people. But I'm bearish on their ultimate success through compliance with a system that is rigged against them; if the system needs to be better, people need tools to depend less on the status quo. That's what I work on.
Finally, of course there are more people on SN that chose to leave the safety of the system, because Bitcoin is an increasingly useful tool for that, largely thanks to first btcpayserver and then LN adoption. So it's logical that you run into more people here that are non-conformists than you would in a normie community about funny cat videos.
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Yes Bitcoiners are much more likely to question the power of the state as Bitcoin itself challenges the monetary monopoly states claim via via money.
I value Bitcoin because it does that too, because bankers and politicians have misused their position of trust to an extraordinary degree that undermines both democracies and economies.
I hope Bitcoin can impose some healthy competitive pressure upon corrupt bankers and politicians but I do not go so far as to assert all power hierarchies are inherently corrupt and invalid because I do not believe that to be true.
Humans are weak as individuals and only gain security, wealth and power by forming groups which in turn compete with others for resources and territory. This is writ large in human history.
It is not so much a question of whether centralisation of power is desirable as it is inevitable...as centralisation tends to increase ability to project power and control resources.
Technology has driven larger and larger centralisation of power and wealth.
The US and its subsidiary western 'liberal democratic' powers have enjoyed significant dominance over access to and use of global resources by having superior power projection capacity over others.
China is today challenging that dominance.
About 70% of the world live on the 'wrong side' of history, being governed by autocracies where individuals have limited if any real say in the governance imposed upon them.
It is mostly from those living under the 'liberal western democracies' that the idea of individual sovereignty has gained a popular following, but this concept is naive in its assumptions.
The individual 'rights' of westerners are largely built upon the privileged access to and use of global resources- the idea of extending those individual freedoms independent of the security and power projection of the state is inherently naive.
You may be able to avoid taxes by buying residency in a tax haven, and enjoy wealth largely gained as a result of your fortunate original citizenship, but this is not an option for the vast majority of humanity.
Algorithms are today a technology that is driving centralisation of power but they are mostly still subservient to the host nations serving them with the legal and territorial base from which to operate.
Bitcoin can be seen as uniquely different in that it is inherently and deliberately decentralised and does not favour or fear any individual or group- but Bitcoin is the exception in this regard...and even Bitcoin is slyly but relentlessly being brought increasingly under the surveillance, taxation, control and custody of centralised entities and ultimately subservient to nation state regulation and control.
Centralisation of power does come at a cost but also delivers dividends to the dominant group/s - to opt out of the mechanism because you can escape paying taxes by relocating to a tax haven because you have enjoyed the economic advantage of originating from the dominant group, goes not alter the reality that competition for resources and territory between competing nation states will continue. It just means you have chosen to stand on the sidelines and not participate, because you can.
Most people do not have such a choice and in fact live at various degrees of disadvantage in terms of economic opportunity and individual freedom because they originate from the subservient territories which are approximately 70% of humanity.