Super has been arguing about the privacy trade offs between monero and lightning for at least half a year now. I'm here for it.
Is it the answer to @sethforprivacy's Bitcoin Fungibility Graveyard?
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568 sats \ 3 replies \ @028559d218 7h
The problem with the so-called "fungibility graveyard" as it relates to Bitcoin...
Is that it relates to Monero exactly the same way.
The "fungibility graveyard" implies that "tainted Bitcoin" (ie involved with CoinJoins) won't be accepted by exchanges because it could have been involved "with criminal activity" so therefore "it won't be accepted". "Exchanges will ban it" or blacklist it etc etc...
Well if exchanges "ban it" because they can't prove 'provenance of funds...' they can't prove 'provenance' with Monero either. So Monero is equally unacceptable.
If CoinJoined funds are 'too risky' for an exchange because it's not clear "where it comes from"...
and Monero is "private/untraceable" then the exchange won't accept it either because they can't prove where it came from.
Which is exactly what we see in the real world.
From the above link (https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/)
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A user’s Binance SGD account is frozen upon attempted withdrawal to Wasabi Wallet for mixing:
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A user’s Paxful account is frozen upon attempted withdrawal to Wasabi Wallet for mixing:
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A user’s Bitfinex account is frozen upon attempted withdrawal to Wasabi Wallet for mixing:
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A user’s Bitstamp account is flagged months/years after withdrawal to Wasabi Wallet for mixing:
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A user’s Gemini account is frozen after previous transactions with Wasabi Wallet were discovered upon review of his account:
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A users’s Bottlepay deposit is rejected/returned upon depositing mixed funds:
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A user’s BitMEX account is flagged months after withdrawal to JoinMarket for mixing:
(etc etc)
If Monero transactions are 'big coinjoins' where the send/receive addresses are concealed and the amounts concealed...
How is it known if "criminal activity" was associated with any Monero transaction?
In other words, if exchanges block Bitcoin that's "tainted" they will block all Monero, period. Which is exactly what they do.
All the KYC/regulated European exchanges have delisted Monero. The same in Australia. The same in Japan.
Binance has delisted Monero. Coinbase has completely delisted Monero. It's delisted almost everywhere with the exception of Kraken in the US maybe.
KYC/AML security theater is the issue, not necessairly Bitcoin or the privacy-preserving use of cryptocurrencies.
In short, any 'bans' on certain Bitcoin will apply almost equally to Monero (if not more-so) so saying that Bitcoin is 'tainted' doesn't make any sense.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1ftru31/kraken_delisting_xmr_within_europe/
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17 sats \ 1 reply \ @anon 2h
You're conflating blacklisting and fungibility
Monero would be entirely blacklisted in that case (every coin is equally blacklisted - indistinguishable from any other coin)
Bitcoin would still be non-fungible (some coins are blacklisted and some are not - some coins are distinguishable from other coins)
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Scoresby OP 1h
I worried about this in my OP. Thanks for pointing it out.
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17 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 3h
Your point is very heavily centered around the use of a CEX somewhere in your journey. Monero supporters strongly prefer P2P and DEXes.
Moreover, a sizable fraction of them embrace delistings.
Furthermore, only 1 out of the 7 bullet points quoted had to do with a deposit (your main line of reasoning). The others were actions taken upon or after withdrawals and continued tracing of them - just showcasing how much is being tracked even after you withdrew already.
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17 sats \ 0 replies \ @seashell 52m
monero getting delisted everywhere is proof that privacy works, that’s why it’s treated like a threat. bitcoin’s problem isn’t the lack of privacy tech, it’s that the incentives are stacked against using it. monero users expect to be cut off from the system. bitcoiners still think they’re part of it.
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119 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 13h
Yeah, I'm hear for it too. There is so much bravado about privacy and stupid takes which seem more like ego than anything else. Its so dumb.
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102 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 13h
People should be very humble about two things. Technology security, and privacy. Both could and likely do have unknown bugs or weaknesses.
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17 sats \ 0 replies \ @nkmg1c_ventures 11h
Interesting, thank you
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 14h bot
https://xcancel.com/SuperTestnet/status/1935080419281748246
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