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I always struggled to talk with normies about libertarianism, in the end I kind of gave up and tend to gather with other libertarians only. It was always hard for me to debate and express my ideas, I get nervous and loose my temper. But recently I had an insight and would like the opinion of other libertarians. The idea is the following: I would start explaining the NAP, then I would approach two main areas, the robbery via taxes by the state as I would mainly be talking to Christians. Then the other area would be services offered by the state, main arguments would be that you can't opt out of education healthcare and etc offered by the state and having no opt out option is like saying everybody needs to be baby sitter as if a committee of experts knows what's best, or even worse it's playing God knowing what's best for everyone but without giving free will to individuals (being a Devil's slave in the end). The last point regards guns ownership, my argument is how can you regulate and prohibit gun ownership with the goal of reducing violence without using violence to enforce your "I know what's best for everyone" positive laws?
I prefer to focus on particular issues. People generally get really hung up on labels and aren’t very philosophical, so I stick to why state policies won’t work or will have really bad side effects.
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but that's kind of utilitarian argument, I prefer to go more on by principle. But in the end people don't care about principles.
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You can still bring in principles when discussing issues. The point is to not waste time talking about abstract labels like "libertarian", "capitalist", "socialist", etc, but simply address each issue on their own with concrete discussions about the policies and their effects.
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I agree, but maybe talking about the NAP as most people are leftists that think they are protecting the weak and opressed. Then why not start with the non-agression principle.
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Because their idea of oppression doesn’t map cleanly onto the NAP.
They are perfectly fine with forced redistribution of resources and abstract rights concepts just don’t land with them.
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I honestly don't understand that. It's like when they're against gun ownership because of violence and will exercise violence to enforce laws against guns, totally retarded.
Most people aren't principled. Most people in my experience are very utilitarian though they would not admit that because our culture likes to pretend that it thinks principles are important.
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Exactly. We’re very unusual for being interested in the ideas.
If you want to talk to people, it’s best to meet them where they are.
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Wise words as usual. Listen to this person. Relationships are way more valuable than intellectual purity. I can honestly say I have influenced a number of people towards liberty but not through argumentation but rather relationships.
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Recently came accoss this: https://archive.org/details/edward-griffin-the-chasm-collectivism-vs-individualism Good short piece introducing some of the important distinctions.
On the communication piece: It's often a good idea just to bear witness to how you feel and think about a situation without trying to convince anyone about anything. Simple changes of phrasing towards "I can't help but feel that...", "I can see no way around ...", "It makes me sad to see .... because ......" etc.
Instead of trying to convince just try to bear witness as acccurately as you can to what you actually feel and think.
E.g. Instead of declaring that taxation IS theft, you can try "I cannot see taxation as anything other than theft". That way heated arguments about "no it isnt! yes it is!" are avoided.
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maybe also saying that I pay taxes in order to not go to jail?
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I've made the mistake of laying on the table things like:
"Out sourcing violence to a mafia called "government" does not make it moral or any less violent."
"A majority voting for theft of a minority doesn't change the fact you're stealing or taking other people's stuff by force."
"Guaranteeing positive rights implies slavery or theft."
It can be frustrating to hear people deny that.
I can't see any way around these and when you say something like that and people say "nah that's bullshit that's totally retarded" without attacking the logic or offering a counter-argument and instead just say "you're wrong" why that can be frustrating
because it seems to me these are simple logical statements that one can't really disagree with. And there's the problem: I should say it that way: "I can't see any way around concluding..."
That way the other side can't say "no I disagree" or "that's wrong" I'm simply sharing that I cannot see a way around those things.
Then you can push them a little bit and ask them to explain how they explain otherwise
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but if they react that way to those truths you can't call it a relatioship. In the end I think it's better I just get away from people that can't handle those truths.
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There's definitely some people with whom further discussion is likely to be fruitless, or certainly not worth the effort. But the point I'm making is that we should be honest and realistic in the way we speak. That way we not only speak more accurately and more truthfully, but that manner of speaking can also avoid unnecessary argument. However much we believe something to be true, however certain we are, however logically inescapable something seems it is still our opinion and our perception and we should talk in that manner. I've noticed discussion are far more congenial that way. People don't get defensive as much, don't dig their heels in as much. It becomes more about exploring perspectives and possibilities, than about proving who is right and who is wrong.
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Well said and it is telling that very few Libertarians appear capable of responding in such a calm and reasoned manner where they will defend and represent their viewpoint in a manner that welcomes alternative viewpoints - because they provide a golden opportunity to engage in a contest of ideas.
Much more often Libertarians out themselves as fragile emotional ideologically rigid 'believers' in a creed, and that they cannot convincingly respond in a calm and reasoned manner that convincingly refutes alternative viewpoints.
When a respondent seeks to shoot the messenger they concede defeat, by default, in the contest of ideas. They lose the opportunity to respond in a manner that demonstrates to a neutral observer the logic and strength of their beliefs.
just downloaded the epub version, thanks for sharing
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Q: "what is the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist?" A: "about 2 years"
Mark Passio says that the ideal form of government is a blend of anarchy and monarchy: internal monarchy (individual sovereignty) with external anarchy (no rulers); anarchy (an-archon) means -> no ruler -> no master, no slave -> aka freedom;
people's minds are severely diseased; they have to clean up their air, water, food, light sources, and information, go back to the fundamentals, and one day they'll come up with the correct solutions on their own; it is also imperative to lead by example and demonstrate how a proper, righteous way of life is more satisfying and rewarding;
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There's a similar one about the difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state being a matter of time.
Relatedly when you agree to taxation of a certain percentage you agree 100% with the principle.
Do the principles justifying a welfare state justify totalitarian government, totalitarian government being merely a fuller application fo the principles already at work?
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I've heard that in a minarchist version, with the answer being 6 months LOL
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I still consider the old definition as when a libertarian was an anarchist, now even the term ancap must be dropped because misused by Milei the communist.
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ain't that the goal all along, to confuse people and show them that what they thought a good word means is represented by a psychopath or a stupid agenda
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yes, unfortunately yes.
12 sats \ 1 reply \ @Lazy_AMA 23h
I so much love the options you highlighted: Christians, Education, Healthcare and the State, even though I'm @aPolitical. But talking about Libertarianism, I'm totally confused on that.
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In the very words of @ek "I love the way my name is been used here". 🤭
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Libertarian ideology is a decadent outgrowth of the decadent western civilisation that has dominated global wealth and resources for centuries. The idea of individual 'rights' being more important than the individuals obligations to the group they belong to is something that has developed most strongly in the societies which have come to dominate others cultures and gained wealth and power via imperialism. The individuals in these privileged dominant societies come to expect more and more 'rights' from the state and to take the state and its provisions more and more for granted. This is the beginning of the end for these societies as other competing societies where such a sense of entitlement is not so developed. China is an example of where citizens understand very well the consequences of a weak nation state government- The Opium Wars left China devastated for a century. Only in recent decades has the Chinese state come to respond to the dominance of western civilisation in an effective manner by combining state led economic strategies with the natural entrepreneurship of Chinese people. In contrast decadent Libertarians moan about paying taxes as though the infrastructure and military productive power and power projection of the state is not essential to their individual wealth and security. The nation state and its effective functioning is crucial to the wealth and security of citizens- most even westerners still vaguely understand this. There has never been an enduring wealthy dominant culture develop and sustained without good government playing a crucial role in the process.
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of course, without the govt who would build the roads lol
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There is an efficiency in a government that can plan and direct infrastructure in a manner that creates a self reinforcing virtuous cycle. A government for example that develops transport infrastructure than improves the marketability of its farmers and manufacturers improves their profitability and ability to pay taxes to fund further development. It is via this process whereby the government has the unique position, mandate and capacity to develop the productive potential of its jurisdiction and the ability to fund it in an ongoing way that determines which economies come to dominate and which come to be subjugated. You cannot give any examples of wealthy nations where the government has not performed this role, because it is just as nonsensical as Libertarian ideology itself is. Private enterprise can and does not ever have the mandate, incentive and ability to develop the productive economy and national security in the same manner, and it never does. As Adam Smith put it hundreds of years ago 'People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the publick, or in some contrivance to raise prices' No much has changed and you still need a good government to regulate and manage the overall best functioning and development and security of the economy...while enabling free enterprise to thrive within that framework. It is a subtle expertise and balance - something lost on the crude black and white reasoning of Libertarians.
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So you're in favor of central planning. That makes us enemies, goodbye.
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If you are confident of your ideology and the reasoning behind it you will invite and welcome alternative views as an opportunity to demonstrate the advantages your position and views supposedly offer. If on the other hand you are not confident and capable to reason and present the logic and strength of your ideology, but instead it is based on a shallow set of premises, poor reasoning and desire to belong to a group of fellow believers, you will stumble and revert to reactionary silence and inability to engage in and win the contest of ideas.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @flat24 22h
I prefer to keep aside to talk only with people who think similar to me, it gives me headache sometimes trying to explain to another person on these issues, people are too lobotomized.
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Generally not (hide; don't ruffle feathers; nobody is ever convinced by words...), but recently I've been doing the opposite: live not by lies, do not put up with evil.
Jury is still out on what's better
  • for me (mentally taxing vs damage to integrity)
  • for my social surrounding (social "peace")
  • for the world as a whole (does anything make a difference...?)
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