The Taboo Against P2P Liquidity Providers Must End \ stacker news ~bitcoin

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The Taboo Against P2P Liquidity Providers Must End

2926 sats \ 40 comments \ @siggy47 1 Jan bitcoin

Now that I no longer use exchanges to buy bitcoin, I'm getting more and more interested in the p2p world.

Let's take robosats, for instance. It seems to me that there needs to emerge a class of trader middlemen to provide enough liquidity for reliable exchange. Maybe it's already starting. This is what capitalism is all about, though the sausage making can be ugly.

Even raising this subject on SN could be touchy because the reality of the process requires bitcoin traders who are consistently moving in and out of fiat.

Markets have always needed market makers to provide liquidity, so how can bitcoiners opposed to kyc/ama custodial exchanges not accept this practicality? If I'm not mistaken, this is how the Rothschild family got its start in gold markets (I know they're not a model of virtue) Throughout history those providing this function have been looked down upon with scorn and derision as cheats and crooks, but without them markets won't exist.

I'm really just learning the ins and outs of robosats, but lack of liquidity seems to be an issue. Without enough traders collecting fees, timing the market, and moving in and out between bitcoin and fiat in whatever form (tether, usd, amazon gift cards), can there ever be a real, sustainable challenge to the exchange and government sanctioned paper money world of Saylor and BlackRock?

Am I off base or missing something? Is there an alternative?

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728 sats \ 10 replies \ @aljaz 1 Jan

you are spot on.

the problematic part is the fiat part for all these p2p exchanges, you can't just run tons of random tx from various people through personal accounts without raising lots of flags quickly. Occasional transactions are not a problem, but doing this to some scale where it makes sense you'd need a network of people to process all of that. Given the nature of how these operate its fairly risky and leaves the market maker with a large logistical nightmare that costs a lot both in terms of risk and actual funds being frozen.

and in case you prefer not to expose yourself but want to use other people's accounts and compensate them for it then you're in the typical territory of nigerian princes, finding willing people to "lend" you their bank accounts which is another nightmare you don't want to deal with.

11 sats \ 2 replies \ @supertestnet 3 Jan

You do not need a bank account to use robosats or bisq. Money orders and cash by mail are perfectly serviceable options and both let you use the service in volumes of tens of thousands of dollars per transaction with no risk of a closed bank account. There are other risks, though.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @aljaz 3 Jan

neither is very practical for any kind of serious market making operation which is generally the topic of discussion, you could also do gift cards but i don't see that working out at scale.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 3h

Yeah for small amounts there are good P2P options, but Bitcoin probably needs waaay more adoption before we get to larger amounts.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 2 Jan

people to "lend" you their bank accounts

hahahaha I used that method with Bistamp some years ago, using my grandma's bank account.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @siggy47 OP 1 Jan

Yes. Actually doing this in a secure way is a difficult undertaking.

123 sats \ 4 replies \ @aljaz 1 Jan

strictly legally speaking i don't think there is any jurisdiction where you could feasibly do this. there might be some who will not give you too much shit about it but you're unlikely to be able to get decent enough fiat rails to make sense

there is of course way to incentivize better liquidity on those exchanges, specially since some of them provide api access and you can build an aggregator and essentially notify ppl where the demand is and if the price is right they might be willing to do be a one of market maker. its far from efficient operation but maybe crowdfunding liquidity on p2p exchanges is the real defi

62 sats \ 1 reply \ @Fiatrevelation 1 Jan

notify ppl where the demand is and if the price is right they might be willing to do be a one of market maker

Cool idea. I think boltz swap just implemented something similar, where you can get rewarded in sats by swapping depending on liquidity. It makes sense.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 1 Jan

Yes at pro.boltz.exchange

12 sats \ 1 reply \ @nikicat 6h

Russian p2p market volume is $41b in 2024 https://www.rbc.ru/crypto/news/665066579a794764c51aa31f p2p starts to work when you have a business demand, not a bunch of geeks caring about their privacy.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 3h

Uhh I may be reading this wrong (using Google translate), but this lumps p2p volumes in with other forms of trading

436 sats \ 3 replies \ @Rexdentron 1 Jan

If the problem is scattered liquidity, it's likely caused by the existence of many different markets (Robosats, Bisq, Mostro, etc). But there is a possible solution : B2PCentral

If the problem is privacy regarding fiat involvement, i don't think Face-to-Face order can help. Instead gift cards might be a super option here (at the end of the day Strike, Revolut, Cashapp etc are legal-compliant businesses)

Afaict Robosats is a solid option already (highly accessible), but ofc Mostro need to exist not as a competitor but as a back up plan in case SHTF. Not sure about Bisq since most of the population mainly daily-drive mobile devices

73 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 1 Jan

B2pCentral looks great. Never had much luck finding KRW trades, but using this, i seem to find many...

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 1 Jan

Interesting, I've never heard of B2PCentral. Just checked it out.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 1 Jan

Thanks for this reply. I didn't know B2P Central existed. I agree that gift cards seem like a great option.

329 sats \ 4 replies \ @BlokchainB 1 Jan

Good luck. I’m fully cucked on KYC exchanges due to my needs for liquidity.

My issue with using robosats and bisq is the payment methods that sellers take are from 90% KYC sources like Zelle, cash app, and strike. I only found one seller on bisq who did money orders but the logistical nightmare I had to do just to buy $50 worth of bitcoin wasn’t worth my time anymore.

I used to use an ATM with a burner phone but then the ATM asked for ID at lower limit.

The P2P options are just terrible. If you have better luck I would love to know.

62 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 1 Jan

I think almost everyone who uses Robosats to buy bitcoin just lives with the fact that at least one other person (the seller on Strike), they are "kyc'd".

Though actually you don't know the name of the person that you received fiat from, you just know their Strike nickname. But of course Strike could figure it out.

Hey, it's 1000 times better than regular KYC exchanges. It's a question of degree. There's still far, far more privacy doing P2P exchanges.

50 sats \ 1 reply \ @siggy47 OP 1 Jan

I can't disagree with anything you say. Giant pain in the ass. The least painful way, as I see it, is buying an Amazon gift card with cash at a drugstore, then heading over to robosats. That is still inconvenient.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @BlokchainB 1 Jan

Yeah those cards have fees and limits.

The KYC thing used to bother me alot but then I thought BTC is limited in supply. While sure I’m keeping my privacy I’ll end up with a lot less BTC then a person who buys on coinbase and just secures it away.

Plus bitcoiners should play offense too. Change the law. We can change the laws that will ban KYC and mandate exchanges to delete the data.

But western men are cucked so they LARP and complain about the state with out risking a damn thing to change it.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 2 Jan

Yes. Governments did a lot in a hindsight. It is about a time to have more adoption meaning that accepting and paying with Bitcoin.

377 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 1 Jan

I mentioned in #831476 that starting yesterday, I’m going to exclusively use RoboSats to buy bitcoin for at least two weeks.

But I have to walk back on the starting date because I still have some fiat in Strike and I never withdraw from an exchange back to my bank account (might cause tax issues).

So after I no longer have fiat in Strike (which should only take a few more days), I’ll start to give RoboSats a fair chance.

122 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 1 Jan

Am I off base or missing something? Is there an alternative?

Don't know the answer, but seems like a very interesting question.

Also with LN, liquidity is key, and the ones who are able to provide it are the ones making the biggest routing fees. E.g. providing liquidity for LOOP-type of services.

73 sats \ 0 replies \ @TheBTCManual 2 Jan

Lol that's the life of P2P, I try to use it when I can, if I find orders in my local currency but those very sparce, so I'm forced to use a payment method like PayPal or a stablecoin to access global liquidity

But if I'm purchasing a stablecoin, I might as well use a liquidity pool, honestly shitcoiners kinda solved this problem with AMMs, I know TBDEX offers this on liquid but because you still need to swap into L-USDT first kinda another pain in the arse

I think it takes a certain type of person to want to arb p2p its not a set and forget while liquidity pools you just dump your funds, set your fee and hopefully get volume that turns over your funds enough times to earn something

164 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 2 Jan

Slowly all exchanges must die, even the p2p ones. Why? Because people MUST start using bitcoin as money. I mean earning and spending in sats and no fiat anymore.

All these exchanges were useful only for the transition period, but slowly it will became obsolete. The only usage for the p2p ones will be to trade goods and services, using their escrow service. But slowly nobody will "sell sats for fiat" anymore. For example I used robosats to pay with sats for a good delivered. You just have to put an order and mention what do you want in exchange for the sats.

Sincerely you have to be insane nowadays to sell sats for fiat ! PURE INSANITY.

93 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 3 Jan

Been traveling and under the weather but this is a great topic @siggy47 and you point out some logical inconsistencies with some stackers for sure. There are many (I suspect young) bitcoiners that seem to be more concerned with virtue signaling their based-ness over logic and reason. Its OK. I usually just ignore them because I was once young and full of unearned confidence.

The reality is that bitcoin is NOT a widely accepted MoE yet and until it is there will need to be exchange markets with liquidity. There are people that earn bitcoin or have stashes and need to use fiat or something like a gift card from time to time.

I don't live on a bitcoin standard yet. I do spend and replace but I'm not on the level of some of the bitcoiners out there. I'm not ashamed of that and if they take pride in that good for them.

The market prices on Robosats is higher but such is the cost of more privacy. If you value that you'll go there. With liquidity it is a chicken and egg problem. I believe it will all work out but the vanguard (people like you and I) need to use these tools and systems so that they will be more prepared for the eventual collapse of the fiat system.

That's my perspective at least.

16 sats \ 0 replies \ @siggy47 OP 3 Jan

Well said

121 sats \ 4 replies \ @standard_sats 1 Jan

P2p got only worse recently. Almost dead.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @purpurato 1 Jan

Wrong

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Signal312 1 Jan

Why do you say that? Seems pretty active to me.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @standard_sats 2 Jan

It peaked in 2024 when Paxful was closed by US and they have been selling compliance basically. Before LocalBitcoins and LocalCryptos went offline. Bisq conducted protocol overhaul and I didn't even checked it out but it always had weak order book and I don't expect it improved by releasing Bisq2. Binance p2p... Well all, US 3 letter agencies now sitting on Binance.

The only good thing is Robosats but... There is ongoing war on cash and even Amazon gift cards require KYC nowadays. And we don't have anything really disruptive for years in Bitcoin. Unfortunately there are really good ZK projects in Ethereum but not on Bitcoin.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 3h

How is ZK relevant here?

83 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 1 Jan

Regulated and controlled CEXes and ETFs have been allowed in order to control the market, increase institutional custody, gain kyc surveillance and limit as much as possible the development of kyc free P2P options.

The governments and bankers are seeking to capture and control the protocol...and they are.

The more Bitcoiners become aware of this the more we might reasonably seek to use non captured markets like robosats and bisq. The more Bitcoiners who use these non captured markets the more liquidity they will achieve.

62 sats \ 0 replies \ @standard_sats 7h

I realized that people didn't bring in topic of p2p trader security / threat vectors. These guys are swimming in risks and sometimes they share it in personal communication. It is just truly dangerous place to be in and it spans from physical threats to phishing and software bugs/bad UX.

53 sats \ 0 replies \ @anon 5h

You are spot on, peer to peer markets, & DEX's are the way. We should all participate in P2P markets.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 4h

In person cash remains the king of p2p, godspeed on your journey

41 sats \ 3 replies \ @nym 1 Jan

We need more in person meetups to do this in person

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @siggy47 OP 1 Jan

Yes. That would be best. I would imagine it might be tough to attract sellers, though, without sufficient incentives.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @shadowybadger 3h

There are always OGs around looking to sell at these prices. I recently started a P2P group in my city.

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @nym 1 Jan

Good point

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @cristaiji 1 Jan

I haven’t yet ventured into using P2P exchanges however RoboSats is likely to be my starting point. Fascinating post.