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Reasons for low fertility rates and the wokeism cancer

4319 sats \ 51 comments \ @Shugard 24 Nov alter_native

Reasons for low fertility rates

The Backstory

A friend of mine (absolutely woke leftist climate change person) argued with me about my dream of having up to 4 kids.

Since my better half is pregnant (#771612) and we are excited about our new journey, I had a chat with her. She asked me if I would like to have another one. I told her I wanted more. She got really defensive. Who am I to burden my wife with this! She has to give birth 4 times? What kind of a horrible person am I, and are there not enough people on this planet already? (Oh, she's a Malthusian - no surprise there). Can't I just adopt children from poor countries?

Her argument for why the fertility rate is dropping there:

Women's empowerment! Gender equality!

Her Argument:

Since women have the power to be free and decide what they want, they do not want to be baby poop factories!

Women are free now! Men have to deal with it!

The more rights women get, the lower the birth rate.

Look at South Korea, women are free, thats why they dont want to have kids.

My Argument:

First we have to take a step back and look at history. We will use the data we have from South Korea (because its her argument), Germany (because thats where we both are from) and USA (because thats where most of the audience is from and I dont want you to drop out).

My arguments why the birth rate was higher in the past:

more children died
there was no pension system
there was no elder care system
there was no birth control

More Children died

I am using the UK as a US reference here, hate me for that.

My argument is that fewer kids are dying, so we dont need as many anymore. Once the death rate dropped, the fertility rate dropped from over 5 to 2-3.

There was no pension system As soon as we see nationwide retirement systems for all people, we see the fertility rate drop. We do not need as many children to help us with our financial support when we are old. The government will do that for us.

There was no elder care system Again, since the elderly care systems have been government-provided (Germany 1995 and South Korea 2008), the fertility rate has dropped again. We no longer need generational households. I do not need children to take care of me when I am old. I can go to a nursing home.

There was no birth control

Since the introduction of the pill in the 60s and 70s, we have seen one of the sharpest declines in fertility.

My argument for why it is so low now:

Since their argument was more freedom and more equality for women, I will prove the opposite.

South Korea has the lowest fertility rate of our three countries at only 0.7. But is it also the most gender equal?

Men do not spend nearly as much time on chores as women.

Which points to more traditional roles.

The same is true for wages and work.

South Korea falls behind.

I want to remind again that the fertility rate has been dropping for the last 100 years, not for the last 10 years of gender equality and woke madness.

So why is it that not only is the fertility rate dropping, but more and more women today do not want to have children?

The reason I give is the fiat world.

Let me explain:

The state is taking more and more responsibility away from the family. As the welfare state expands, the role of the family becomes less important. Social security in the form of pension systems, elder care systems, and others are taking away our responsibility to take care of our future.

Moreover, the state intervenes and destroys norms and culture. Religion in the form of marriage and baptism is no longer important. You do not have to get married. Women have the safety net of the state, they do not need the role of a security providing man anymore. Baptism to bring children into society is meaningless, because godfathers have no legal role anymore, because the state takes over if the parents disappear.

Education has been taken away from the parents by compulsory school systems.

The man's role in the traditional family was destroyed by the state, but the woman's role is now unfair and must be changed.

So where is the meaning?

What makes us human beings are three qualities, I would say:

having meaningful experiences that shape our future far more than instincts can.
taking responsibility for someone else beyond our own needs.
building a legacy beyond our death.

All three combined will give you the traditional family. Whenever you ask parents what their greatest memories are, they all include their children. They sacrificed more for their children than they could have imagined, and the children carry on their legacy.

Isn't that beautiful?

But what do we have today?

But today we have a society where masculinity is evil. Where women are free to whore around with birth control. We have open relationships left and right. Students who study way too long without creating any value. A society where no one wants to take responsibility, but demands everything from the other person. No commitment, no responsibility, no sacrifice.

Congratulations Wokeism!

You are not the cause of low fertility, but you are the cancer that has grown out of it!

But there is hope!

When we started that topic in school 9 out of 86 students wanted to have kids in the future. After the whole shared responsibility and roles in the family topic we did the questionnaire again. more than half want to have kids in the future now.

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75 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 24 Nov

Fuuuuck, my guy doesn't hold back.

Congratulations Wokeism! You are not the cause of low fertility, but you are the cancer that has grown out of it

142 sats \ 2 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 24 Nov

Could it be that THEY want the population of prospective slaves a bit more diminished so they can enjoy more “living room”. Wokism is only one of the methods they are using. Look at ”Climate Change” as another example, just a method of bleeding the West of all accomplishments. THEY are working on one-world government, religion and military, too. So the vaccinators, feminists and abortionists are doing, as Be ill Gates says, “THEIR best to lower the population.” Remember, only 500 million people.

37 sats \ 1 reply \ @jk_14 24 Nov

Media are doing this horrible, inside job towards 500 million people...

"Almost the entire mass culture in the world, the extensive entertainment industry, the film and music industry, social media, countless directors, actors, singers, celebrities, influencers and trendsetters work on this. They instill in subsequent generations the belief that the most important thing in the world is the "self" and satisfying its desires, desires, whims, and fancies. Career, consumption, entertainment. In this perspective, sacrifice, renunciation or offering for others make no sense. There is no sense in giving your life for another. "You only have one life, why should you give it to others?"

https://wpolityce-pl.translate.goog/spoleczenstwo/690585-pokolenie-bez-dzieci-czyli-potomstwo-jako-zagrozenie?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Rothbardian_fanatic 25 Nov

Perhaps THEY didn’t quite get it right! The media are nothing more than propaganda and indoctrination devices, now, and many people are aware of that problem. Also, is the, “You only have one life, live it up!” philosophy anywhere near what reality is? Many have questions about that.

481 sats \ 7 replies \ @south_korea_ln 25 Nov

There is no one-theory-fits-all, for any societal question.

Yet, as you mention South Korea, let me briefly shine in.

A few factors that play a role here, in random order:

Extremely hard to re-enter the workforce as a woman after giving birth.
Women are breaking free from societal conventions on how they are or are not supposed to behave. Being baby factories is one of them
Women are still supposed to bear most of the burden of raising a child. If my son gets sick, the school still by default calls the mother rather than the father to pick him up. Mums are expected to come right away, even if they have a job
No clear working hours. A company has to freedom to call you in to come work on a Saturday or Sunday. How is one expected to raise a family in such environment.
Feeling of unfairness between genders
Many men also don't want to have children anymore. As a man, you are expected to be able to buy a house to enter the marriage. Housing has become extremely unaffordable for many
Many now-adults experienced traumatic childhoods. Either coming from broken families (remember, the previous generations experienced war, and other societal unrest) either experienced the extremely have burden of cutthroat competition in education. They just don't feel like they want their children to experience the same thing.
Some people are disenchanted with society and government. They don't feel like they own society anything, including assuring its survival.
Complete fatalism towards the future
Some people, if they are finally financially secure, feel like they finally have some time for themselves. Why would they burden themselves with raising kids.
... (there are many more, but I'll end up ranting if i keep going)

These are all observations. I want children. But that's my personal choice. Many friends don't want to. That's their choice. I completely respect their choice. They all have their reasons. No woman or man should be forced or expected to have kids. Similarly, people should respect other people's choice to have children.

Bitcoin will not solve this. This is more than just a fiat problem.

21 sats \ 6 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

These are all observations. I want children. But that's my personal choice. Many friends don't want to. That's their choice. I completely respect their choice. They all have their reasons. No woman or man should be forced or expected to have kids. Similarly, people should respect other people's choice to have children.

Very well spoken! Human freedom is always above everything!

And I would never force anyone to do anything!

But addressing the root problem could bring them back to the idea of having children.

As I saw it in my class. Most of the points you mentioned are comparable to rural Germany. But people forget the long term benefits of having a family and see the short term opportunities. Social media is another driver of this issue.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @bief57 25 Nov

What are the long-term benefits? Please don't answer me "having someone to take care of you in your old age." I have a daughter and I don't expect or believe that I should be her responsibility in the future. If she wants to support me, it will be her choice, not her obligation. Taking care of my old age is my responsibility from now on, since I am young.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

To name just a few long-term benefits:

A sense of purpose in life
Passing on your legacy and values
Emotional resilience and health
Learning a new level of empathy
Greater involvement in your community
Shared responsibility with your partner that brings you closer together

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @south_korea_ln 25 Nov

I have a kid. I can relate to many of the points you make, as a parent.

Yet, I don't think any of those benefits are unique to parents. Childless people can achieve similar benefits. I've seen it a lot around me. Truly achieved people. Be it through their family, their friends, or even their job.

On the other hand, I see lots of parents who try to compensate for their miserable lives by trying to live through their kid. The kid is a tool to fill a void.

The above opposition I made is on purpose, to make a point. I do believe there are also miserable people without children, as well as truly achieved people who have children. A few friends come to mind.

What I'm trying to say is, that one will get further in understanding childless people by casting away any feeling of judgment. Having/not having a kid does not make one better or worse. Being a great or crappy person makes one better or worse.

Speaking based on my experience in Korea (and to a lesser extent, Europe). I did not live in rural Germany, so I cannot relate to your experience there.

Caveat, I did, at some point, not so long ago, think having children was the way to living a purposeful life. It works for me. Yet, I've talked long enough with people who do not think this way to realize it was short-sighted of me. There are many other ways.

This rant is not aimed at you. I went a bit off-tangent. You seem to be very respectful towards other people. I did not think I'd be writing this much~~

107 sats \ 2 replies \ @bief57 25 Nov

I just felt like you stole my words. I have exactly the same opinions that you have given. The only thing that I would attribute to being exclusive to parents is the immense love that is born when you have a child, it is an indescribable love that you will never experience if you do not have children. You can love your partner, your parents, your siblings, friends, your pet, but that love will never compare to the one you feel with your children. It hurts to say it but being objective it is only a trap of survival, of biology. Just as sex is delicious, divine and great for trapping living beings and thus procreating and ensuring the survival of the species, the love for children is the same. That desire to leave a legacy is rooted in the same thing.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @south_korea_ln 25 Nov

I just felt like you stole my words.

I could say the same thing, you also expressed pretty well what I was trying to convey.

I agree with that feeling of immense love towards the kid. It's indeed indescribable. For the vast majority of parents, it comes naturally. Sadly, I've met a few people for whom this feeling of unconditional love wasn't natural. Luckily, some of them come around and feel that way eventually.

But not all. So, it's good when people know themselves well enough to know that bringing a kid into this world is not something for them—too many mentally damaged people in Korea. Damaged to the point where this strong biological survival feature got suppressed/destroyed due to the environment they grew up in.

140 sats \ 0 replies \ @bief57 25 Nov

The only thing I know about Korea is what I've seen in documentaries or read, and I've seen a lot about the great mental pressure both in studies and at work, well, you said it yourself, the pressure is so strong that socially it has broken all biological instincts for reproduction. I also know people who said they wanted to have children but in the end they didn't even take care of them; here in Latin America, paternal abandonment is very, very common, sadly.

reply on another page

210 sats \ 0 replies \ @bief57 24 Nov

The question of whether or not to have children is controversial. If you want to have children, it's a dilemma, and if you don't, it's also a dilemma. I once had a conversation with a girl (she suffers from depression and has attempted suicide), and we got to the point where I asked her if she wanted to have children, and she said, "I don't think so. I'm scared... what if they are capable of committing suicide? Even though they don't exist yet, I don't want to bring them into this world and make them suffer."

I've had this conversation with a lot of people so I get a variety of answers. I was once told "why would I have kids?" I actually think that's a good question, having kids isn't like going to a store and buying a toy, it's a responsibility, mental, emotional, physical and financial. I think it's smart that people now have kids because they really want to and not because it's a social obligation because then it would mean that you're an "incomplete" adult, people today think about whether or not they can really carry that responsibility, some want it but can't because they don't have a solid economy, others because they're not emotionally connected to the idea, and believe me having emotional intelligence is key to having children. How many children should a family have? What the couple unanimously wants and can support emotionally, physically and financially.

120 sats \ 2 replies \ @cryotosensei 24 Nov

Having children is an immensely personal decision and endeavour, and I feel that it has to be viewed from the lens of your situation and values.

I’m surprised your wife mentioned such generic arguments. She should hire me as her advisor haha. This is what I would argue:

Children cost money. If you want four of them, you will have to delay your retirement plan and be stuck in the fiat world for longer. Are you prepared for that?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

I don't, I own BTC

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 25 Nov

very nice counterpoint... Raising children, parenting etc is immensely valuable -- but so is exiting fiat grind and building meaningful things with wealth. Trade-off

32 sats \ 6 replies \ @freetx 24 Nov

I have a pet theory that not having sufficient children is whats fueling the "botox-cougar" syndrome.

I think that at a deep biological level, these 47 y/o botox cougars[1] realize that they don't have enough (or likely any) children. Thus, the biological urge to "appear attractive" in order to attract a mate goes into overdrive and results in them having enough botox and plastic surgery that borders on body dysmorphism disease.

[1] - yes I realize they are past menopause, but probably doesn't matter to the part of brain that is still fueling the 'attract a mate' behaviors

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 24 Nov

Combined with aspirations of becoming a girl boss and Karen

10 sats \ 1 reply \ @stack_harder 25 Nov

one reason in the past for higher birthrates i think was that most societies were more agrarian which means each kid is a free worker on the farm, with less farmers, there's also less benefit to more kids, but far more cost

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

This is definitely a plausible variable.

11 sats \ 1 reply \ @bief57 24 Nov

So... having a large number of children = not having interest in using Botox? Or I didn't understand.

11 sats \ 0 replies \ @freetx 24 Nov

Essentially yes! (as I said, pet-theory).

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

Interesting thought

142 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheBTCManual 25 Nov

Lol African here, we're still popping em out, better start learning an African language kids!

But in all seriousness, I'd also add that today too many people have main character energy, its all about me me me, and raising children is anything but, people are infantalised so why would they have the motivation to raise another child and force themselves to grow up?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

Amen! That's what I ment with

But what do we have today?

The ego is rising

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @TheWildHustle 25 Nov

Ideologies that want to reduce the human population scare me.

A lot of times, not wanting kids can be short-sighted.

Women shouldn't feel pressured to have kids. And I was unaware any pressure existed.

The main track of thought around my jurisdiction is, equality, diversity, believe all women etc. I was born and raised here, and imagining anything else seemed barbaric and uncivilized at one point.

Glad I found my way out of the information Gulag. Now I'm in the Nostr echo chamber. 🫡

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

Amen!

21 sats \ 12 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Nov

Feminism has made most women slaves to their corporate employers.

0 sats \ 11 replies \ @028559d218 25 Nov

Gotta pay the bills some kind of way...

21 sats \ 10 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Nov

Feminism has contributed to the financialisation of almost every aspect of human life. Women now give birth and immediately after the baby has bonded to the mother they hand their childs care over to a paid carer who has no genetic bond or investment in the child. Preschool children now often bond and rebond to multiple carers creating a deeply dysfunctional psycho-social-emotional framework. Tantamount to abuse even if not done intentionally. The paid carers work under a corporate model where there is no love and all focus is on profit. Feminism has substantially degraded womens lives and those of their children and communities. Feminism is materialism at its worst. It is responsible for a global genocide of unborn children.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @south_korea_ln 25 Nov

Those daycares you describe sound pretty awful. Luckily our son is thriving under the care of some of the most loving people I've ever met.

I've also met many women who adhere to feminist principles while at the same time being amazing mums. Those two are not exclusive where i live and where I've lived.

0 sats \ 8 replies \ @028559d218 25 Nov

It's not feminism, friend. Instead people, 2 people, have to work just to pay the bills.

Fiat money, government money, combined with government debt has driven up borrowing costs, not to mention inflation in many places.

People can't save... and it shows in families. Women 'go back to work' after childbirth because they have no other choice.

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Nov

Nonsense. Feminism looks down on motherhood and family while holding paid career as the thing to aspire to. And masses of women have bought into this materialist BS. Feminism has caused the genocide of millions of unborn children and more are killed everyday in the name of preserving and advancing womens career prospects. Women do not need to work, they choose to work because they have been brainwashed by feminism and the corporate slavery that it aligns with.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @028559d218 25 Nov

What about men? Perhaps they should stay home and look after children? And then the women, at least some women, can go to work and earn for the family?

That way the children get cared for (by men) and the women can go 'earn a living' for the family. What's wrong with this? ?

21 sats \ 4 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Nov

Men and woman are not the same. The genders have evolved to perform very different roles in the raising of children.

This absolutely unnatural nonsense that feminism has rammed down peoples throats for decades is destroying the family and society.

You do not understand the complex bonding that occurs between the child and the mother in the early months of life.

Instead you think it is ok to break that bond forcing men into an unnatural role or by sending children into the care of unrelated paid corporate childcare workers. This is tantamount to child abuse but you don't even realise it.

It is such completely confused and dysfunctional thinking that is causing an epidemic of transgender confusion and other symptoms of societal decay.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 25 Nov

Well... if you had daughters you would be singing a different tune. And encouraging them to get as much education as possible, as long as they wanted to, to pursue anything they wanted in life. Regardless of what random dudes on the internet (without the same education) felt.

my 2 sats

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0 sats \ 1 reply \ @028559d218 25 Nov

Well then we respectfully disagree. If women 'want to work' and in fact earn an advanced education... they should do exactly that. It is their life and 100% up to them.

Had you been born a woman (by total chance) you would be singing a different tune. Just as you are now by any suggestion that men should 'stay home' and care for the children.

Had you been born a woman (again by total chance) you would not want to limit half the population, you would want the same opportunities as anyone else.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 25 Nov

deleted by author

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @OT 24 Nov

I think in the end it on the female to decide how many kids to have. People can change too. I never wanted to have kids. I may have been in a similar mind set to your friend. Lucky I woke up!

BTW where I live in semi rural Western Australia it's not uncommon to meet families who have 4-5 kids. I think it also comes down to happiness and stress. If you're enjoying life, you naturally want to have more. Unfortunately for us, we started pretty late and it looks like its going to be 2 kids. We'll see, you never know!

Good luck!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Signal312 24 Nov

Good luck on having more kids. If you're interested in ways to extend and preserve female fertility, look up carnivore and Dr. Robert Kilz (https://www.doctorkiltz.com/about/).

10 sats \ 4 replies \ @028559d218 24 Nov

Don't take this the wrong way... (and I read your whole post)

Could it possibly be that in fact your spouse is just cautious of having more children? Having one child is extremely taxing on the female body... not to mention emotionally, mentally, and financially taxing.

So having more children could just be making her more anxious, before she has delivered the first one? ?

21 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek 24 Nov

A friend of mine (absolutely woke leftist climate change person) argued with me about my dream of having up to 4 kids. She asked me if I would like to have another one. I told her I wanted more. She got really defensive.

I think you read this like I initially read it but "her" in

Since my better half is pregnant (#771612) and we are excited about our new journey, I had a chat with her.

doesn't refer to his wife but to his friend. His friend got really defensive, not his wife.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

Exactly! My wife is fine. She wants to bring this child into the world and if she likes it, we want more.

The whole lyric is about the thoughts of my friend who has no children.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @denlillaapan 25 Nov

The right impression, I would wager

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @028559d218 24 Nov

Hmmm. It sounds like his wife got really defensive. Just the way it sounds.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @roastebeefe 25 Nov

Feminism is the greatest societal cancer to rock the Western world. Feminism is just Marxism for your home. Whereas Marxism is typically rejected by the average “working bloke” feminism has crept in through the back door.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SwapMarket 25 Nov

You forgot AI and Technological Singularity will doom your children to joblessness and poverty.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Shugard OP 25 Nov

Never ever

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Coinsreporter 25 Nov

Thankfully we have a government in India that that doesn't advocate for birth control. You'll be surprised but it wasn't the same 10 years ago with a different government. Even after we have the largest population in the world, you can see politicians from government party advocating for having more kids. They say the manpower is essential for a sustainable growth and development.

I have my first kid recently and I'll be having more. I've not given it a number but at least 3 or 4.