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Hi all, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Bitcoin privacy.
tl;dr: I tend to think we should have privacy for small transactions but retain public pseudonymity for large (significantly society-impacting) transactions so that the wealthiest individuals, large corporations, and governments can't hide their activity. I worry that we're building privacy tools for ourselves now (a legitimate cause) that could be used nefariously by the most powerful later on. What do you think?
Long-winded version: Right now, we have pseudonymity (names aren't inherently attached to transactions but public addresses are), but since most ways of buying bitcoin require KYC identity verification, names are being linked to addresses. It seems like the more Bitcoin is adopted, the more people's entire financial activities will be public, which is far from ideal. Various initiatives are underway to bring better privacy to Bitcoin, but herein lies my concern.
I'm not convinced total transaction privacy is good for the world either, as some Bitcoin privacy advocates appear to be. We live in a world where individuals can possess as much wealth as small nations, and they deploy that wealth to influence the world in their favor. We all do this to the extent we're able, so I'm not arguing against that per se, but I think it's crucial to healthy society that this influence is public, not behind closed doors, under the table, or via 'dark money' (sadly the current system). I don't think it needs to be inherently connected to names, but the transactions themselves should be public so we can have good data about what's happening in the world (think Glassnode but on a global economic report scale) and form good policy based on this data (regardless of how large or small you think governments/community organization should be).
I'm not technically knowledgeable so forgive any misstatements, but my understanding is things like Lightning are bringing more/better privacy to Bitcoin, which I think is great. People should be able to shield their financial activity from others, especially dictators, up to a certain amount. But if Lightning grows to a point where billions of dollars can flow through it fairly opaquely, what's to stop, say, these dictators from using it to operate with even less accountability than at present? I know that the 'criminals use bitcoin' narrative is ridiculous at present, but will it always be ridiculous if massive, untraceable transactions become possible?
We're building legitimate privacy tools now with ourselves in mind, but if Bitcoin becomes as big as we think it will, are we actually building privacy tools for the very elite/governments we're trying to achieve financial freedom from?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original Bitcoin design (public pseudonymity) is genius but since that's been somewhat compromised by KYC, the backlash is trying to make Bitcoin transactions private, and I worry that both full KYC and full privacy are bad for the world.
I'd love to find out this isn't an issue, either for social or technological reasons, so let me know your thoughts!
Gov btc addresses should be public by law, and any tx can be followed from there. The public/opposition just needs to ask the right questions and in fact do chainanalysis themselves. Auditing tx should be done by default by opposition parties. Govs can even use privacy tx to hide delicate/defense expenses from other states, as long as it's all logged and can be audited by a commission/opposition.
Tx with public funds should be auditable by law. Tx with personal funds should be protected by law.
More important is the fact they can't print more btc.
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Now this is a fascinating topic, the intersection of Bitcoin and law. You make an interesting argument - individuals should have privacy but certain entities like governments should not. But if that's to be accomplished through law rather than code, bitcoiners will have to become more engaged in politics and legislation than we've been willing to be so far.
El Salvador is a relevant example: as far as I know, Bukele has not disclosed his/the government's address, so even though he tweets that they "bought the dip!" we don't actually know if they did. Price-wise right now it would be better for them if they hadn't, but more importantly, having one person in complete and non-transparent control of a nation's bitcoin balance is asking for trouble/misconduct.
I applaud separating money and the state but so much of how they did it seems ham-handed.
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This could grow naturally from the btc ethos. When people start paying taxes in btc, they will be able to follow the money much more transparently. The questions about how the gov spends it will come. This is part of the democratic process and will grow organically with btc adoption.
Bitcoiners are typically very reluctant to and careful with what they spend their btc on, so if a population is orange pilled, their democratic gov by definition should have the same mindset. Sounds utopian, I know.
Bukele is a questionable actor in that regard. He forced it onto his population without much transparency and education. What are his real motives?
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Utopian but possible, and definitely worth a try!
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I've contemplated the curious contradiction that is privacy as well. Privacy employed by the powerful allows them to abuse that power, yet privacy employed by those without protects them from the abuse of power. Chicken or the egg?
I have a blog on my website that explores this a little (Prepend my username): .com/2022/03/23/the-annihilation-of-humanitys-social-structures/
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Thanks for being one of the few to interact with the idea of privacy not necessarily being a good thing. Thought-provoking blog post too. I'd be interested to see you apply the ideas in the post more specifically to Bitcoin.
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I worry that if we don't build privacy tools for ourselves now (a legitimate cause) that could be used by most governments later on to control us.
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Almost definitely, I just hope the solution doesn't come back to bite us
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Bitcoin is neutral money and MUST work the same for everyone
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In some ways it naturally won't. Take coinjoin for example. If you want to Coinjoin a hundred bucks worth of bitcoin you can do it. If you want to Coinjoin $40 million worth of bitcoin, you can't.
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Yes. A single policy for ALL transactions. Bitcoin doesn’t care if you approve or not.
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What I don't get is that most agree that communications should be private (E2E encryption in Signal or HTTPs for example) but when it comes to finance, that is suddenly a bad thing.
I get that we are trying to "combat terrorism", lobbyism or money laundering (insert other reasons here).
But how exactly is the argument different for financial privacy?
By this logic, shouldn't for example Signal do KYC to not allow big players access to encrypted communications?
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Another good reason is to say "to protect the children". Works everytime. Who would be against protecting children? /s
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Nah, fuck children, they're annoying and they make me uncomfortable drinking in front of them.
But we do have strong distinctions between which communications should be private and which shouldn't. For example, insider trading regulations. So I think it's fair to ask if, similarly, some transactions should be private and some shouldn't.
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Good point. It's definitely fair to ask, that's why I upvoted your post. Thanks for posting it!
But regarding insider trading:
There, we regulate that insider trading is not allowed by investigating it when it was exposed. But we don't regulate that every communication between parties must be open to prevent such things. Correct me if I am wrong.
So I think the difference is that insider trading laws do not lead to "guilty until proven innocent" which is how AML laws are applied. There, you are guilty until proven innocent which I think is not how it should be.
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Well thanks for the upvote!
If I'm reading you right, you're saying that all entities should be presumed innocent until proven guilty, meaning their transactions should be private and any wrongdoing must be discovered another way. I'm open to that and do take that view regarding many things, but I'm wondering if in this case the wrongdoing would actually be impossible to discover if all transactions are private.
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Yes, exactly. I think those wrongdoings should be discovered another way since else, other rights that are more important to me go out the window. Privacy and free speech (since AML or similar laws can be used for censorship) are the first which come to my mind.
However, yes, I am also wondering if that would make it impossible to prevent cases where financial transactions are not good for society.
Someone else in this post proposed to have Gov btc addresses public, so maybe something in this direction.
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I might actually prefer if our democracy required politicians to give up all communications privacy. This isn't a complete response to what you said, but it is a special case that I might think is good.
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I agree. I guess it fits with my bias toward privacy as the privilege of the powerless, which is what my question is getting at, but perhaps Bitcoin will solve these problems in other ways.
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Everyone is trying to influence the world in their favour, there's nothing inherently wrong about it and you don't necessarily need large sums of money. For example, this is what you and I are doing right now, by trying to convince each other of our respective point of views.
I'm worried that by creating special rules for specific people you're introducing an attack vector that can be exploited and abused.
Take for example gun controls, you can't own one, but only men dressed in blue can… by preventing you from defending yourself, the State makes you dependant on him and can now manipulate, coerce and exploit you.
If privacy is a good thing, it must be universal, for small and large transactions. I can think of many types of large transactions that we not for buying influence.
Your example is not practical either, corporation, could easily bypass this law by making several small transactions instead of a large one.
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I agree with you on everything, but I think a better gun analogy might be: do you believe a person should be able to buy/sell one gun without anyone knowing? If so, do you believe that person should be able to buy/sell 10,000 guns without anyone knowing? Should a multinational corporation be able to buy/sell thousands of guns without anyone knowing who they are or even that it's happening?
As for the practicality, transactions can be split up, yes, but unless there's black-box privacy, volume anomalies can still be observed, which is useful data.
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You either have privacy, or you don't.
The problem is that you keep wanting to create exceptions where privacy would not apply. This will introduce a loophole that somebody will eventually exploit to invalidate privacy for everyone.
This is happening right now with the 1A and 2A in the US.
As long as everyone has the right to defend themselves with weapons, it makes no difference if someone is allowed to buy/well 1 or 1000 guns without anyone else knowing.
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Bitcoin is fine. It works the same for everyone.
Think of it like the Internet. Anyone can have a website there, a huge multi-national and a guy in his garage. Both are playing with the same rules.
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Should be a downvote button that takes sats from a crappy post up to a limit, say 100 sats max removed per postand gives them to SN.
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Only if it applies to comments too 🙂
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A change like this would flood the mempool and effectively place a cap on transaction size. If there were anonymity for small transactions, you'd be trading privacy for convenience but privacy itself would not demand a premium. It's better to find anonymity through other routes and services and keep the basechain simple.
Most ways of "buying btc" are through money changers. Because they're handing dollars and are running a trading platform it's natural they should be regulated if their service is directed at the bulk of the population. You could trade for btc other ways and never go through an exchange.
Lightning implementes this privacy layer for these small transactions you speak of, so I think you should look closer into that. Don't forget people into bitcoin are very concerned about all these things you describe and there are many ways to achieve perfect secrecy with bitcoin itself. So, people with large sums will take advantage of this if they find it desirable.
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I agree, my question was more wondering: if something like Lightning scales to be the bulk of bitcoin transactions, would this be better or worse for society than the public basechain continuing to be the arena for large transactions?
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To answer this question specifically, yes lightning scales to large transactions through Pickhardt payments, but for long term storage of sums, lightning isn't appropriate (though still works). I regularly move 1Msat between my node and a specific peer with a direct channel all the time, and since its a direct channel it's literally free. Lightning is a liquidity network, and in being so, it makes sending payments quick once bitcoin has been set aside on-chain for a lightning channel but the only purpose of doing this would be to later break it up into smaller sums. If your intention is to recieve a large sum and hodl it, why would you put it on the lightning network unless it was already there? Another way of saying the same thing is, if you dont ever intend to spend some money, why would you transfer it from your savings account to your checking account? Lightning is the checking account and debit card of bitcoin, where onchain transfers are more like a savings account.
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Yes, I do think if they continue to function this way - on-chain as savings, Lightning as spending - this could be the perfect combination of privacy and pseudonymity.
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Your topic is curious indeed, that should "big money" like governments be allowed to operate in darkness. I think that I understand why you bring it up. Bitcoin was designed to address this problem, but not in such a blunt-force way you are familiar with. Rather bitcoin was designed to address the secret or opaque counterfeiting of people's energy and thus allowing many cabals of conspirators to manipulate the world through the inherent imperfect-knowledge problem present in the market of money and credit.
Banknotes, what we call fiat, are inherently inflationary. There are two kinds if inflation, short-term and long-term. The kind everyone feels in their pocketbooks is long-term inflation. The kind the banksters and econunists use against us is short-term inflation, and they dismiss this theft by saying their banknotes are "more elastic" and claim its necessary to "lower the demand for money to enhance economic activity".
These are the kinds of deals we need as a society to put to an end, both the ability for inflationary loan-defaults to happen, and the dark smoke-filled backroom under-the-table deals done between international indistrial chieftains, the monied rich and the subversive deep state tyrants who all collude to keep their grip on the throats of hard working godfearing families.
Bitcoin, being a grassroots response to this eternal struggle between the honest and dishonest puts an end to manipulation of our liquid assets through lending of fiat or monopolistic hoarding of mining rights of metals.
If you study anarchism, you may find there is a connection between the corruption of government and the "imbalanced scales" used in coinage. To take this intrinsic need for a trust relationship around securing weights and measures away from the government, also largely neuters government altogether.
Therefore a concern bbout large sum transfers or holdings on the blockchain may be misplaced, and the underlying problem you are trying to solve is tyranny of a government or of a powerful international business. The greater likelihood is neither would be possible, nor necessary, and simply wouldn't exist under a system of perfectly hard money.
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One can hope! At any rate, I'm excited to see money and state start to re-separate.
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I don't need to change your mind. You can happily make hour own fork of Bitcoin that includes your proposals and invite people who want to see the same implemented to join you.
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You don't need to, but I'd sure be grateful if I'm wrong!
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I'm not sure I understand the question. Suppose you know that a billionaire Tony Stark has a UTXO of 100K BTC. You see this UTXO splitting into three worth 20, 30 and 50K BTC. Then you see 50K further splitting into 10 and 40K.
Now form good policy based on this data.
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I should've been more clear. Maybe this is a better phrasing: when it comes to transactions of thousands of sats, is the world better if we have full publicity with identities attached, pseudonymity, or complete black-box privacy (no record of transactions, like cash)?
Then, is the answer the same when it comes to transactions of thousands of BTC?
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OK, I see.
The government really wants to see what billionaires are doing but they do funny stuff like smurfing or structuring. This is why the government insists on all this AML/KYC shit which hurts ordinary people - not that the government gives a shit about those. Realistically it's not possible to enforce publicity for billionaires and maintain privacy for small folk.
So given the realism constraints I choose privacy or pseudonymity for everyone.
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