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Hello folks! Glad to be on Stacker News to do an AMA.
I've been following Bitcoin for a long time (~9 years), but only recently decided to quit my fiat job and dedicate myself to the Bitcoin LN community as a developer and site operator.
I created Lightning Network Plus (LN+ for short) a bit more than a year ago to help Lightning Network Node operators cooperate and open channels to each other.
I didn't come up with the concept of "rings of fire" called liquidity swaps on LN+. They existed before on Reddit and in Telegram groups, but it was somewhat cumbersome to organise them. LN+ was meant to make such cooperation cooperation easier by providing step by step instructions and notifications.
The idea behind swaps is relatively simple. Node operators agree to open channels to each other in triangles (or other shapes) and this way for every channel you open, you also get a channel that is empty on your side, thus creating incoming liquidity to be able to receive Lightning Network payments.
LN+ was an instant success and the site has been very active ever since. We now have about 5K node operators who opened channels with a total capacity of ~830 BTC.
We have all kinds of users, profit oriented routing node operators, merchants, LN users, etc.
Swaps have some advanced features, like private swaps for groups of friends, and dual swaps to open large channels between two users.
LN+ also has other features besides swaps: an LN Node explorer with rich profiles, a direct messaging feature between nodes, and a watchtower. I intend to improve the site continuously, so ideas and suggestions are very welcome.
I'm very grateful to be able to operate the site for the Bitcoin LN community. I'm looking forward to your questions.
Ask me anything about: • LN+ • LN in general • Bitcoin • Science (Particularly evolutionary biology) • World Culture • Languages
Thank you for having me on! I loved the questions. Some inspire me to do more learning and research. The Stacker News community rocks! 🤘
I appreciate all the sats too! 👏
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Do you have any reservations or reasons as to why Lightning can't or won't eventually become the default payment layer of the world, assuming that Bitcoin continues its adoption rate?
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Yes, I can imagine a scenario where layer 1 can't support the massive need for channel opens and closes. It's possible LN will choke on its own success and we will have to come up with a different L2 which uses L1 in a significantly more efficient manner.
But I'm also aware of many developments that will reduce the stress on L1 by LN. For example, I recently tested opening 3 channels across 3 nodes with one transaction. Batching this way is already an improvement. Taproot and future soft forks will reduce transaction sizes too. There are also ideas like channel factories. I'm also excited about the idea of LN on side-chains, like Liquid. We could have a system where many LN networks operate together with submarine swaps. So you could be running an LN node on the Liquid side-chain and pay a merchant who runs a node on proper Bitcoin, and we're all using the same SATs.
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I see that problem of onboarding billions into LN. I even think it my be even harder to create your own channel (there may be channel factories but It will still be difficult for a person to open her own channels). That is why I am just creating channels with everyone, leaving them with 10-25% on my side, and using the rest for more chsnnels. Those open channels might be useful since it is empty LN capacity that might be able to fill or lease in the future.
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LN on Liquid sounds interesting. Finally easy mode wallets like Breeze and Phoenix could have the option to start with receiving just a small tip. That would make them much more user-friendly. Actually why aren't they doing it?
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I'm a sucker for analogies. Do you have a good biological analogy for Lightning?
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The first thing that comes to mind is our mind. Our brains are quite literally built around nodes that are connected to each other and send signals of different intensity. Very similar to the Lightning Network. It would be interesting to think this through and see if LN can over time become a conscious thing, although we would need to reach billions of nodes for that.
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In an imagined utopia with hyperbitcoinized Lightning ... how would the infrastructure look like in your opinion? Would normal people run a node with a single connection to their local supermarket? Or would still only enthusiasts run their own nodes with everyone else having accounts with their enthusiast friends/family/bank?
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This is my imagined setup: • Families run their LN nodes on their home router / server • The family LN node will serve multiple family members each having their own accounts, wallets and funds • The node will have only a few channels (3-5) to most used services, such as their employer, to an online merchant, and maybe their communication provider, family friend • These channels are open for years, similar how you get a credit card and then you stay with that bank for years • New channels are opened when the family needs more liquidity to receive or spend • The node is "watched" by 1-3 friend nodes (LND Watchtower or CLN Eye of Satoshi) • Each family member will connect to this node with their phone to use the network to receive and send SATs
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Recently I read about Fedimints which proposes a more realistic scenario imo.
  • Instead of 1 household - 1 node, a group of X friends maintain Y nodes (X>Y).
  • The nodes are maintained by the tech savvy households (trusted Federation setup). Could be friends, could be employee/employer.
  • This strikes a middleground between holding your own key and trusting one bank to manage your money.
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Not comparable IMO.
Fedimints are trusted, but home LN setups are not.
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If you had to build a Lightning business from scratch today that was not LN+ (or a liquidity marketplace), what would you build?
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I would build Stacker News. It's great!
But if you're looking for an idea that doesn't exists yet (to my knowledge), I would build a service which allows you to pay for subscriptions automatically. This is an area where credit cards still have an edge over the Lightning payment ecosystem.
What do you believe about bitcoin's future that few bitcoiners agree with you on?
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It's most important to focus on the solid monetary layer. Decentralisation and security of layer one is critically important. Reckless development and experimentation belongs to layer 2, which doesn't threaten layer 1.
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Thanks for doing this!
What was the final push you needed to jump-in full-time?
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I'm at point in my life where I wanted to do something meaningful that changes lives in the world to the better. I feel helping Lightning go global is the best way for me to help billions who want to be part of the global marketplace and provide their services, yet are currently unable to do so, because they are unbanked, or suffer in weak fiat currency systems. This is 50-85% of the world's population, depending on how you calculate. If we can make Lightning happen together, it's going to have a huge impact.
Currently, I'm running LN+, but I aim to help the LN ecosystem any way I can in the future as my knowledge and skill grows.
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Thanks for doing an AMA! Where do you see the biggest avenues for growth of the network over the next 3 years?
Do you envision more net-new nodes? Nodes steadily increasing their capacity (with swaps)? Perhaps a higher concentration of "enterprise" (ie kraken, river, acinq) type nodes? Or other general trends in node types and adoption?
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I think the biggest growth will be with semi-custodial solutions where the user doesn't need to run a full node themselves, but also don't give up control entirely. There are many companies building different setups (ex. Breeze wallet) and I think some of them will be breakout successes. But all this relies on plebs running routing nodes to keep the network strong and decentralised. I welcome the Krakens and. Bitfinexes but we should not rely on them entirely.
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Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. Beyond all of your insight on @tomlaies question on hyperbitcoinization & ln - are there any additional tools, platforms, yield options - (anything really) - that you think would be helpful to drive continued and additional financial incentive for the pleb type routing operators?
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I think we will have a significant new revenue stream from TARO. You will be able to exchange USD to SAT, and many other tokens, and node operators can facilitate these swaps for a fee.
Your avenue of thinking is very important. I will be giving it time... I have nothing more right now.
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Thank you! Hope to receive constructive (or any) feedback. Email with your suggestions, and ideas for improvement.
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Tell me something about evolutionary biology!
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The most surprising fact that you can use during your daily meditation is that all life on Earth is related. You're quite literally a cousin with the tree in your garden, but also with the roach in your pantry, and your dog in your living room. Some life forms are very distant cousins, but we still all had a common ancestor millions of generations ago.
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everybody knows that. i'm a bioinformatician. try again!
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Ok, trying one level up. You may know this too, but most people don't realise that we (the human body) are "just" a fantastic vessel for our genes to survive and travel into the future. Our DNA self programs through evolution to create ever better spaceships (animal bodies). Our genes are the pilots, despite how we feel about ourselves.
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Thank you. "Our DNA self programs" would require some explanation. DNA polymerase makes mistakes on purpose to allow for variation. I would say the DNA that is here today, has survived. All the other possibilities have died.
Let me give one back. Did you know that DNA is not a blank slate? It is epigenetically controlled. So it can inherit 'experiences' from the mother and father.
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Great correction!
Yes, I knew that and it's a fascinating fact. Thanks for bringing it up.
It's amazing that for example kids of parents who survived war and famine would actually through epigenetics "prepare" their kids for similar conditions on a genetic level so they are more likely to survive similar conditions.
Animal breeders can experience this. For example, pups of dogs who have lived on the streets will be more timid and fearful of strangers, while pups from parents who lived in loving homes can easily make friends with humans.
The implication is that when you pick a mate to have kids with, do consider their life experiences, because they will directly reflect on your children.
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That's a great way to explain the importance of epigenetic inheritance!
To add on to this thread, certain types of immune cells purposefully make use of a DNA polymerase that makes mistakes at a HIGHER rate than average. This allows for greater variation among immune cells, allowing the organism to potentially survive better in hostile environments.
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Yes. If I recall well. This is why HIV and cancer are hard to target with medicine. Because they have a higher mutation rate than the immune system.
Yes. This happened in the north of the Netherlands during the hunger winter of 44-45. The babies who were born in this winter had children with eating disorders. It shows how important this epigenetic programming is. (and shitty)
Did you know that viruses have off-frame encoding? Genetic material is encoded in codons of length 3. Some viruses are so efficient that they read off at +1 and +2 Frame reading skips produce functional proteins. Crazy.
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151 sats \ 1 reply \ @sb 29 Jul 2022
I'm sure others will ask incredibly insightful questions about Bitcoin and LN. I'll give it a shot with an evolutionary biology/philosophy question.
Millions of years of evolution has revealed that animals sacrifice themselves to protect their young (to ensure the survival of their genes). Over the last couple of years, we've sacrificed our young (closing schools, masking kids etc) to save the elderly. How can one explain this?
Is this weak men creating hard times? How did these anti-evolutionary deeds occur?
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From the evolutionary standpoint there are strong incentives to protect the old. But these benefits only apply for species with advanced culture and society like humans:
  1. Old have accumulated wisdom, which young people typically don't yet possess, because they spent less time being alive. Such wisdom can benefit society greatly and thus old people have an increasingly bigger value to the species' survival in general. Individuals may not be able to measure or realise this value, but cultural evolution where various cultures compete against each other for longevity typically express this concept through various customs. For example, Chinese culture has been exceptionally stable for a long time, and you observe that they have a strong respect for ancestors and the elderly in general.
  2. Old people in a modern society have the time and capacity to care for the young, because the parents are often working full time and have no meaningful time for their kids. Thus, indirectly protecting the old is protecting the young.
  3. This is not a real benefit but it's a real effect. The young project themselves being old one day and thus want to create a society where the old is not discarded. It's long term thinking on the part of the young.
  4. Specifically during a pandemic, keeping the R0 below 1 was an important consideration, no matter what the age distribution, because it helped slow the spread and thus allowed science and healthcare to catch up and avoid many deaths not related to Covid. At least that's the theory anyway. Execution is a different matter.
I'm not saying we didn't go overboard during Covid by prioritising the old over young lives. Some countries found a more healthy balance than others. Like Sweden.
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Hi Alan Plus!
What's your thoughts about the current limitations of Lightning Network tech, and how these can be improved in the future?
Ty!
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In general many consider the fact that you only receive if you have a sufficiently large active channel to be a limitation. But personally, I don't think it's an issue. If the amount is too large, just send it on-chain. Or even better, let the sender open a channel and send the funds on LN in one go.
Wallets and tools are rapidly getting better, but it's still a steep learning curve to start a node and operate it if you have no understanding of Bitcoin and Lightning. Let's say you're a dentist and you want to receive LN payments, it's not easy. Currently fully custodial solutions are the easiest like OpenNode, but on the long term, we really want everybody to run their own nodes. We need devs and companies making LN easier to start and run.
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Can you think of many use cases for building another layer on top of lightning? Are there any drawbacks to the current implementation that you have found thus far?
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You mean like TARO for example? I'm cautiously excited about it. I want to learn more before making up my mind. Synonym have interesting ideas too. I have to admin, I'm too ignorant about L3 to give you a reasonable answer.
I don't see significant issues with LN. I think it's pretty cool and the ecosystem is growing faster than I expected. Smart people thought this through really well.
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What advice would you give to those wishing to build on lightning, but who believe they lack the technical chops to do it?
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I suggest you start with a small amount and test different services to build a lightning node to gain deeper understanding of concepts before building your long term node.
For example, on Voltage Cloud you can buy a bitcoin testnet node which allows you to experiment without risking real bitcoin and you only have to pay for it by the hour. You can learn how to use Thunderhub and LNbits, etc. Let me know if you need testnet coins.
Then, you can graduate to start an Umbrel node that you run on an old Linux laptop. Later you can build a raspi and run Umbrel on it.
After all this, you will have the understanding and you will be able to decide what sort of node you want to build.
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I'd like to possibly set up a lightning node this weekend since that's the best way to really learn. Are there any non-obvious or unique use cases that you've seen recently for LN+, swaps, and the LN in general?
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I recommend you check out Voltage Cloud and create testnet node. Use testnet coins and learn all the tooling. Make mistakes with testnet SATs instead of sweet real bitcoins.
I'm unsure about the question regarding unique use cases? What do you mean by it?
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What's is your history with Bitcoin Alan?
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Lurker for many years, but never participated actively. I played a very small advisor role behind the very first international Bitcoin conference Inside Bitcoins, and blogged about Bitcoin for a short while long time ago. Unfortunately, I didn't go all in (in all terms) early on.
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Any update on you guys creating a official Lightning Wallet, or am I just bad at research?
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I haven't been planning to do that, but it's a fantastic idea.
I know for a fact that there are some devs who have been thinking building LN+ into their wallets. Using LDK creating an LN+ wallet would not be a very difficult task.
If anyone wants to try, we do have a recently released API: https://lightningnetwork.plus/api_documentation
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American Football 🏈 or basketball?
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I like both occasionally but I'm not a huge sports fan in general. I have a problem. I can't watch anything that doesn't directly translate into something that builds me up or helps my project move forward. I feel I'm "wasting" my time. I know it's silly, because everyone needs to relax and socialise. I have to work on this. Maybe we can grab a drink at a sports bar together. 🍻
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I’m down for that!!!
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Do you view liquidity ads and services like Loop competitors to LN+? How about liquidity marketplaces like Magma?
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Yes, in a sense, but not really. Let me explain.
We all make incoming liquidity possible, so in that sense it's competition.
However, LN+ provides it for free, and you "pay" with your own channel, so it's a different model for different situations. I think both models have a place when building up and operating a lightning node.
I think these services are complimentary and we all help LN grow which benefits us all: the services, LN users, humanity in general.
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Is it possible to create rings trustlessly?
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Yes, I successfully tested it already. We will have this feature on LN+ at one point.
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What's the most surprising thing you've learned about Lightning building LN+?
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I thought people will be more weary connecting to unknown nodes, but I realised that the protections built into the Bitcoin LN protocol are sufficiently strong that people are OK to take the chance.
Specifically, the risk is not about losing funds to a bad actor, but that your peer may be able to see the traffic on your channel, which may be used for traffic analysis. In other words, you don't want to connect to a spook.
To be realistic, the information they can gain is not that valuable, so the risk is pretty low.
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Did you name LN+ after your surname?
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Nice observation! 👏
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Will LN+ support LN over Liquid?
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