The reality of the Danish fairytale \ stacker news ~news

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The reality of the Danish fairytale world.hey.com/dhh/the-reality-of-the-danish-fairytale-78069fbf?

5119 sats \ 32 comments \ @Roll 12 Feb news

561 sats \ 17 replies \ @elvismercury 12 Feb

Good article -- I really like DHH. Controversial sometimes but a good actor, I think. This quote:

Which brings us perhaps to the biggest bugbear about Denmark that American liberals tend to skate past: Immigration. Denmark is a highly homogenous society. 87% of Danes share the same ethnic heritage, and they openly credit their cohesive culture and willingness to participate in and share for the common welfare to this fact.

Is a nice example of being honest about something complicated. We talked about that a bit the other day.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

You omitted an important passage:

You can contrast this political reality with Sweden, which otherwise shares a lot of similarities with the Danes in terms of welfare-state design. They went with an open-door policy on immigration for far longer, ended up taking many more (about 3x Denmark), and are now in a world of hurt with the highest gun-murder rate in all of Europe, along with an overall crime rate 50% greater than Denmark.

0 sats \ 12 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb

Complicated?

I think the issue is simple if one were honest like DHH.

It’s only complicated if sentiment guides immigration policy.

Countries have borders for a reason. Countries do not have space and infrastructure to absorb unlimited number of third world immigrants

0 sats \ 11 replies \ @elvismercury 13 Feb

It's complicated because what is moral is complicated unless you have a trivial sense of morality.

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

If you start with the premise, open immigration is the right thing, then anyone who opposes immigration is immoral.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury 14 Feb

That's possible, but more nuanced cases are also possible, e.g., you value life and believe it to be moral to reduce suffering when you can. So now you're faced with a tradeoff of whose suffering do you reduce, under what circumstances, and how do you adjudicate between competing demands?

All of that can (and does) play out in how people think about immigration, and is one of the key constituents of politics. Accusing people who construct this incredibly complicated decision surface of 'virtue signaling' is a strategy I no longer have patience to indulge.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 14 Feb

When you say constituents, are you counting aliens and immigrants or only citizens?

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 14 Feb

"Constituents" = "ingredients"

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 14 Feb

The vast majority of voters support curtailing immigration, witness Denmark and Sweden

reply on another page

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

You are conflating sympathy or virtue signaling with morality.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 13 Feb

You're conflating your opinions with my opinions.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

That was not my intent.

I must have a trivial sense of morality

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

Immigration is a political not moral issue

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 13 Feb

What do you think are the ingredients to politics?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

This is a difficult question which can be its own thread…

One critical ingredient is what DHH mentioned: cohesive culture.

Others are: Rule of law, Clean elections, Unbiased media, Free speech

Listening to voters. Open immigration has never been a majority view in USA and Western Europe.

From DHH: In the mid-90s, after a decade of doe-eyed optimism about immigration in general and asylum seekers in particular, a powerful nationalistic party set a tone for foreigners in Danish politics that remains to this day. At first the political establishment fought this new force, sought to keep them out of influence, but it didn’t last long, because the renegades represented the will of a large number of Danes who realized the dangers of unrestricted immigration early, and voted accordingly.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Roll OP 12 Feb

Thks for your feedback

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @398ja 13 Feb freebie

Very complicated indeed, especially when considering the social cost of openly deviating from the orthodoxy. I wouldn't caractérise this post as controversial; it's honest, and well argued. DHH is spot on here, and I couldn't agree more. In-group preferences are real, normal, and healthy. I see parallels with Dawkins' "Selfish Gene" theory.

But don’t you for a second think this unity isn’t contingent on the homogeneity of ethnicity, values, norms, and perhaps even religion.

5 sats \ 0 replies \ @brandonsbytes 12 Feb

deleted by author

15 sats \ 2 replies \ @kr 12 Feb

great post, i think he’s right in characterizing it as a “fairytale” narrative in north america.

one more point for the “no such thing as a free lunch” crowd.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

“Arm chair social revolutionaries”

Great phrase

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb

Bernie Sanders: USA should aspire to be Denmark

36 sats \ 7 replies \ @faithandcredit 12 Feb

The danish social policies are a bait and switch and the effects are not known yet. But i think its safe to assume the country will end up poorer than Venezuela sooner or later. They just have much more wealth and human capital to squander than Venezuela did.

53 sats \ 1 reply \ @Voldemort 12 Feb

I don't think that will be the case unless they become less of a free market. According to the heritage org, they have the 9th freest market in the world.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @faithandcredit 13 Feb

You are assuming the 8 other countries are free markets

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

The demographics are much different

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

If Denmark has human capital then it won’t be poorer than Venezuela which had more oil than human capital

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @faithandcredit 13 Feb

It had human capital

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

And corruption. Denmark is a cleaner country than Venezuela ever was

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb

It’s not a communist banana republic

Very wrong prediction

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 13 Feb

Did he have to say gun murder rate instead of murder rate?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Bell_curve 12 Feb

Highlight: You can contrast this political reality with Sweden, which otherwise shares a lot of similarities with the Danes in terms of welfare-state design. They went with an open-door policy on immigration for far longer, ended up taking many more (about 3x Denmark), and are now in a world of hurt with the highest gun-murder rate in all of Europe, along with an overall crime rate 50% greater than Denmark.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SaToSHiWoMaN 13 Feb outlawed

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