3599 sats \ 68 comments \ @k00b 4 Feb earth

I started listening to The Death and Life of Great American Cities on my walks to/from Pleb Lab.¹ I haven't gotten very far but Jacobs describes a chasm between foot people and car people in cities. It's kind of minor thing but I found it surprising.

It makes sense that car people would prefer more roads and parking and foot people more trees and walkways but, so far at least, she implies there's some deeper disagreement.

Anyway, are you a foot person or a car person?

I'm bad at finishing audiobooks and worse at listening intently. I wish audiobooks were conversations with authors that somehow had content parity. ↩

foot person79.4%

car person20.6%

63 votes \ poll ended

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623 sats \ 0 replies \ @Natalia 4 Feb

foot - I love to live in walkable places, sometimes even the places that you walk past over and over again you might find something "new" that leads to some adventures.

577 sats \ 0 replies \ @OT 4 Feb

Cities like Shanghai have amazing public transportation, cheap ride sharing and bike hire everywhere. This is the kind of place you don't need a car.

Cities in Australia are much more spread out with a much smaller population. You pretty much need a car unless you live around the inner city.

For me, it depends how far I'm going and whether its with the kids (car) or not (walk).

746 sats \ 0 replies \ @KeynesianClowns 4 Feb

In rural areas, you don't really have a choice, but many cities in the US are just ugly urban sprawl. As time goes on, parts of the cities decay and rather than fixing what is already there, the cities just continue to expand out. Hardly sustainable.

This discussion is one consideration about innovation that is hardly ever discussed. Once something (in our case, the humble car) becomes mainstream, it is no longer a convenience. It, rather, becomes a necessity once adoption becomes widespread enough.

746 sats \ 2 replies \ @johngribbin 4 Feb

I lived in Brooklyn over a decade, never owned a car. So safe to say I was a foot person. Now I live in Florida, in a fairly walkable neighborhood, but not walkable enough that I can survive without a car. I love walking for exercise, but I didn't realize how much I enjoyed the convenience of walking to grab a coffee, or walking home after after grabbing dinner at a nice restaurant. I don't want to live in a big city again, but definitely want something in-between.

Related - I am bullish on earth runners for walking.

21 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 4 Feb freebie

I don't want to live in a big city again, but definitely want something in-between.

Most mid-tier cities have residential housing near downtowns which usually has shops. Still, for the in-between convenience you get the in-between pain of being in a big city.

I am bullish on earth runners for walking.

I walk in Shamma sandals most of the year.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @johngribbin 4 Feb

Oh nice, never heard of Shamma. Will take a look.

Yeah, choosing where to live is all about trade-offs. As I get older, I keep pruning my list- near the ocean, decent farmers market, walkable, clean & safe.

479 sats \ 0 replies \ @kr 4 Feb

i try to stick to foot for city travel, and obviously car for long day trips or weekend adventures

i think bikes align more closely with “foot people”, but the risk/reward of trying to drive a bike through city streets packed with cars is awful.

would definitely bike more if there were more exclusive bike networks, but as long as bikes need to share roads with cars i’ll probably just stick to walking.

704 sats \ 0 replies \ @MaxAWebster 4 Feb

Team foot for life

452 sats \ 2 replies \ @birdeye21 5 Feb

I'm bad at finishing audiobooks and worse at listening intently. I wish audiobooks were conversations with authors that somehow had content parity

Wont be long before the AI let you choose to hear the book from whoever's voice you like, and be able to interrupt them to ask for clarifications, examples, anything. Have the reader give you topics to talk about together after the chapter to help you cement the ideas in your head.

Put in your apple vision contacts too and have the audiobook reader come sit down in the room with you. It's getting weird out here!

54 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 6 Feb

I’m so glad you’re optimistic/excited about this stuff too. Bitcoiners often end up being anthropologists to some degree which tends to make us skeptical of bleeding edge stuff, but technology and change are natural parts of being human too.

513 sats \ 0 replies \ @birdeye21 6 Feb

Yep, we forget how technology is also a part of nature.

Much of the woes and worries I observe surrounding this tech today seem to be looking through the lens of a fiat fugazi world today, and entirely forget what bitcoin is here for. Not to make us all rich -- to decentralize our governance in such a way that we don't have to spiral into the ever-encroaching dystopia that movies and the state make it out to be.

Our fiat brains make us scared of these things -- and rightfully so, given history. We've only lived in a time where theft and debt is fundamental to how we operate. We can't even imagine what it's like to put down the crutches and run a full sprint.

But we can be a cool futuristic star trek free space-bearing kardashev type 1,2, maybe 3, or 4 species that learned how to manipulate technology to our benefit rather than to our detriment.

The fact that bitcoin exists suggests to me that the latter scenario is much more likely than the former.

412 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek 14 Feb freebie

Weather is getting better, I might throw myself out of a train and walk back early in the morning again soon.

352 sats \ 15 replies \ @Undisciplined 4 Feb

I live in a car place, but most of the places I've lived before I walked a lot, so I definitely think of myself as a foot person (please don't take that out of context).

588 sats \ 2 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Feb

so I definitely think of myself as a foot person

Noted. Expect a DM shortly.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Undisciplined 4 Feb

Noooooooooo! It's out of context!!!!!

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 4 Feb

If you want to... I can be the context you're longing for? The missing part to the puzzle?.. 🥺

380 sats \ 11 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

Most places have turned into car places and I think most people at heart are foot people. I expect that to be what a lot of the book is about.

516 sats \ 9 replies \ @grayruby 4 Feb freebie

There is good reason for this. A roadless, carless city is a nice idea like communism is a nice idea until everyone lives in dilapidated buildings and starves. Modern society and our standard of living is dependent on the most efficient means of transporting goods/equipment and labour to build, operate, supply, and maintain everything we interact with on a daily basis. Roads and cars/trucks that give you access essentially right to the doors of where you want/need to go are the most efficient way to do that.

Could you build a city from scratch in a thoughtful way that prioritized walking/biking and mass transit over cars, sure, but the idea that we can take existing cities that have been built up over the past hundred years to be optimized for the efficiency roads and cars provide and change them to be walking cities is ludicrous. It comes out of the fairy tale imaginations of academics and city "planners" that sit behind a desk all day and who are incentivized to come up with "nice" ideas instead of producing anything of value.

So you can put me down as undecided.

804 sats \ 8 replies \ @Undisciplined 4 Feb

I read a piece a long time ago that argued American cities were artificially oriented around cars. The argument was more or less that during the Cold War gas was artificially cheap, because most of the world was kneecapping itself with communism, which dramatically reduced demand. That's also the period when most American cities were rapidly expanding spatially.

I don't know that the argument is entirely correct, but I think there is something to the idea that American car culture is at least in part a market distortion. Also, there would unquestionably be more neighborhood stores if residential zoning were relaxed or abolished.

586 sats \ 3 replies \ @arrivederci 4 Feb freebie

during the Cold War gas was artificially cheap, because most of the world was ~~kneecapping itself with communism~~

still being plundered by Western neo-colonialism, and suffering coups and wars instigated by the West to secure access to their resources (e.g. the West kept cheap access to Iran's oil by removing Mosaddegh in 1953 and installing their puppet the Shah).

(This is not to say that central planning in China and Russia didn't cause economic retardation.)

21 sats \ 2 replies \ @Undisciplined 4 Feb

Those are fair points, they just weren't part of the argument. However, if it was a simple matter of plunder, rather than endogenous impoverishment, then the reduced global demand would have been offset by the west spending their spoils.

The issue is primarily reduced demand from self inflicted economic wounds throughout the non-western world. The Iran point would be more relevant if it also explained why that cheap oil wasn't consumed in the communist economies, but it is certainly part of the picture.

566 sats \ 1 reply \ @arrivederci 4 Feb freebie

My point would be how 'self-inflicted' those economic wounds actually were. (Even the Communist revolution in China only happened after the 'Century of Humiliation' by the West. And Lenin and a party of 40 Bolsheviks were put on a sealed train out of Switzerland, organised and secured by Germany¹, and given safe passage back to Russia before the October Revolution.)

https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/11242/from-the-archive-by-train-to-the-revolution-the-journey-that-shook-the-20th-century/ ↩

41 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 4 Feb

I accept that correction. I was speaking loosely and do really hate the idea of blaming the victims of either communism or colonialism for what they suffered under.

The more rigorously stated point is that communist central planning artificially depressed what should have been most of the global economy. That made oil artificially cheap in the west. That led many American cities to grow in an environment of limited fuel constraints. The result is that American cities are distorted towards car use from what would have happened without communism in the East and South.

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596 sats \ 3 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

The introduction argues Detroit collapsed because the car industry distorted its city planning and lacked the land use diversity to survive the industry leaving.

One of the things this book argues (apparently as I'm not far enough to know) is that mixed use is ideal both for foot people and efficiency.

547 sats \ 2 replies \ @grayruby 4 Feb

I think you can make a reasonable argument that any city dominated by one industry where a large portion of the populous are employed either directly or indirectly by a few megacorps all located in a small radius is susceptible to collapse if that industry fails or leaves.

Could a more diverse use of the land in the city have helped mitigate the effects of the downfall of the auto industry, possibly, but I find it hard to believe a market of auto workers who were making excellent salaries in unionized low skill jobs would have chosen different lifestyles or vocations before the collapse or were going to suddenly build and flourish in a diverse services based economy after the collapse if only the land had been used differently.

"Nice" idea for the intellectuals to ponder and write books about but a bit of a

https://m.stacker.news/14875

77 sats \ 1 reply \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

I get the bend against central planning but I don't know anything about the rigor of urban planning so I wouldn't conclude it's pointless. When people give their life to studying something, I tend to believe they uncover at least something of value even if it doesn't amount to much absolute value.

I find it hard to believe a market of auto workers who were making excellent salaries in unionized low skill jobs would have chosen different lifestyles or vocations before the collapse or were going to suddenly build and flourish in a diverse services based economy after the collapse if only the land had been used differently.

Me too which is why I'm interested in reading a book that claims otherwise.

305 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 7 Feb

Update:

the book is actually about how "planning theory" is dead wrong about everything and her examples of good neighborhoods are those that lacked planning and were bottom-up
Jacobs never went to college
Jacobs has lived in big cities and everyone of her arguments so far is supported by that kind of direct empiricism
I'm only a chapter in but she sounds like the Mises of Urban Planning

I suspect she'd argue that Detroit fell into a wasteland on top of losing most of its economic activity because it was excessively planned.

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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Undisciplined 4 Feb

My first instinct is to check if I can walk when I have to go somewhere. From where I live, though the answer is pretty much always "no".

352 sats \ 11 replies \ @oliverweiss 4 Feb

Foot and public transportation person. But as I am getting older and older, using public transportation annoys me more and more :)

120 sats \ 10 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

I opt for walking (even what most people would consider ridiculous distances) instead of using public transit in Austin. Mostly because it's all buses and one rail with no branching.

What annoys you about public transit?

1 sat \ 8 replies \ @SwearyDoctor 4 Feb

It's very much context dependent on what counts as a "ridiculous distance". A 45 minute, 1 hour walk doesn't at all seem unreasonable to me, and I've walked places for 2, 3 hours when there's no time pressure

255 sats \ 7 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb freebie

I have 1hr 30m roundtrip daily foot commute. I don't think it's unreasonable.

The looks I get from people when I tell them though makes me wonder if I've lost my mind.

42 sats \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury 4 Feb

Then ask them how long they spend driving to the gym and working out to get the exercise you get for free from your foot commute.

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

If they weren't usually fitter than me I would! :)

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 4 Feb

Haha, there's the rub. Well, you have the moral and intellectual high ground waiting for you on the other side of that insulin sensitivity that won't return your texts ;)

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

The best I can do now is say I get a lot of unprompted thinking done. Eventually I'll end my fling with unearned carbs.

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0 sats \ 2 replies \ @ek 14 Feb freebie

You mean you walk 1hr 30min for both ways or you spend 3 hours per day walking?

Either way, impressive.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @oliverweiss 4 Feb

Always something, frequent delays, interruptions in schedules, or recently the trains, I have to use to get to work, have gotten shortened in length and so seats for more or less the same number of people. Nah.

312 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fabs 4 Feb

The Car'rers should be purged for their heresy!

Authored, signed and co-signed,

Fabs, Foot'er

136 sats \ 0 replies \ @sorukumar 4 Feb

We are all born as foot people; social conditioning turns some of us into car people!

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @GrinSingularity 5 Feb

The truth is that feet and car are occasionally interchanged

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @lightworks 9 Mar freebie

I'm on 2 wheels and sometimes 3!

https://m.stacker.news/19636

And then sometimes on 2 wheels driving that with 1 in the air haha, that makes heads turn & for lots of smiles and laughter here ;-)

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @rax0m 5 Feb

Running and biking to and from work

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @SatsCats 5 Feb

Bike

https://m.stacker.news/14949

1 sat \ 1 reply \ @niftynei 5 Feb

i am unironically both

462 sats \ 0 replies \ @niftynei 5 Feb

also most places parking is horribly mispriced; good public transport means having a network that’s completely decoupled from cars (so not on streets waiting behind cars; buses + light rail doesn’t count imo)

i think Austin should seriously consider installing a north/south gondola system

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Lumor 4 Feb

Didn't know I was a foot person until I visited North America.

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @joda 4 Feb

Oh man I REALLY thought this meant something different by "foot person"!

1 sat \ 0 replies \ @OriginalSize 4 Feb

When I am in a car, I hate all the pedestrians slowing me down, being indecisive and vulnerable.

When I'm on foot I wonder what's the rush and pity all the drivers who are so insulated from nature and the natural movement of their bodies.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SpaceHodler 5 Feb

Neither. I don't have a car. I use my bicycle as much as I can, even to the train station which is an 8 minute walk away.

I love nature hikes, but not walking in cities to get my business done, which for anything above a few minutes I find boring and inefficient; the bike always wins there.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Wumbo 5 Feb

Foot person. Had to after selling car to buy more bitcoin.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @btcphoto 5 Feb

Foot & bicycle & public transport

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @DEADBEEF 5 Feb

I’m a car person because I have to be. I live too far away from anything to get there on foot. Biking isn’t really an option either. I do like going for walks around my house though.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Enemy_of_the_state 5 Feb

Motorcycle. More fun, fresh air, lane split traffic jams, and easy parking.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @fm 4 Feb

Sure love to walk, Specially on nature, cities is ok. But cars.. oh boy Had a lot of them, drove a lot of them. Cars gave me so much.. I travelled so much, both work and leisure. You can’t see europe on foot.. i do 120 km to go to the office when i have to.. definitely gotta love to drive. Used to have a vw camper van awd with 2 beds and kitchen.. God i missed that.. Drove a desert raid, 5000km, crossed a huge desert with no roads.. Spend more than i would like on cars, German cars are superior, unzap me all you want. Guess all this makes me more like a car guy

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @NotGuiltyThisTime 4 Feb

Foot absolutely. If you visit a new city you have to walk to see the details of that place like the smell and people's face

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @justin_shocknet 4 Feb

Scooter person

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @joda 4 Feb

Kick? Sit? Electric? Gas?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @justin_shocknet 4 Feb

Electric...

Honestly I'm a truck person, but whenever I'm in a city that has them available I tend to get around as much as possible on a Bird/Lyft scooter rental.. it's a fun way to see stuff and so convenient.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @grayruby 4 Feb

Both. I prefer to walk to run errands. But I also like not living in the city which means you need a car to get anywhere besides the town in which I live. It is possible but not ideal to have a family and not have a car whether you live in the city or not.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @KLT 4 Feb

I’m all FEET! I live in a car city but being from New York, I love the idea of building your life and work around not needing a car and getting as much vitamin D as possible from walking.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @C_Otto 4 Feb

I'm not in the US, though

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @k00b OP 4 Feb

The book focuses on American cities but I'd guess the things it says about city design aren't specific to America.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @ch0k1 4 Feb

I'm a definite foot person

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Roll 5 Feb freebie

I m definetky a foot person, But also i enjoy riding a bike, where i m living there are more than 300km of bike road :)

In your survey, you should have included bike, public transport

10 sats \ 0 replies \ @inesmarie321 4 Feb outlawed

stackers have outlawed this. turn on wild west mode in your /settings to see outlawed content.

Footnotes

Footnotes

The Car'rers should be purged for their heresy!