Sam Harris speaks with Jonathan Rauch about the emergence of fascism in American politics. They discuss Rauch’s article, “Yes, It’s Fascism,” the 18 criteria of fascism, the glorification and unapologetic use of state violence, “might is right” foreign policy, the politicization of law enforcement, the complicity of the rich and powerful, blood and soil nationalism, the influence of Carl Schmitt, the resilience of American institutions, and other topics.
Jonathan Rauch, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, is the author of eight books and many articles on public policy, culture, and government. He is a contributing writer for The Atlantic and recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry’s equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize. His latest book, published in 2021 by the Brookings Press, is The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth, a spirited and deep-diving account of how to push back against disinformation, canceling, and other new threats to our fact-based epistemic order.
Jonathan’s Atlantic article, “Yes, It’s Fascism”
So let's say it is fascism. Ok. Now what? When I read about the lead up to WW2 and the policies during it in the US I see a lot of the same Fascism in the US system that I see in Italy and Germany.
Ok. Now what.
Ideally, the answer is to read A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism and realize fascism sucks because it's a type of socialism.
Ha! Fat chance.
It's been fascism for a long time, or at least that's the major label that has fit the best for a long time.
Not a fan of Brookings or Harris.
Neither am I and I didn't even bother looking at their specific claims. I imagine a bunch of them are stupid.
I have listened to the arguements that fascism is an extreme right wing thing and it just gets more and more stupid to me. You might be able to say it is right of communism due to the nationalism but really its closer to socialism than free market capitalism. Economically at least.
Its literally socialism plus nationalism plus racism.
I think it's about as dumb and simple as "This is bad". Right is bad. Left is good. This is extremely bad so it's extremely right wing.
It is authoritarian. It is corporatism. It is natioanlist. Not internationalist. But that does translate to extreme right to me.
In my view nationalism can exist in many political ideologies. So can racism.
The general confusion of corporatism with capitalism is probably the culprit. Corporatism is just a different business model for socialism, but ultimately it's also state directed resources.
I downvoted this post because of Harris
There are a lot of people that only see the world with a lens of the singular men in power. I've began to think that until we start realizing that the situations around these men are at least as important as the men we will never get out of the loop.
@Cje95
Thoughts?
Are you really asking the guy who is spreading the most pro western media propaganda here?
He will tell you to look at russia and not your own country.
He will tell you the other side is even worse and that you can be happy if you are living in the states.
I think it is more than 20years ago when the west lost its moral compass. Now you have many people joining left and right wings but less normal people who think for themself and have no radical ideology. I like people with mixed opinions. Depending on the topic and not on a ideology.
I agree with you to the extent that the west has lost its way and is increasingly divided.
And that @Cje95 is strongly pro USA.
But it is interesting to get the different perspectives and sides of the argument in order to weigh merit.
@Cje95 tends to address the issues raised more than attack me the messenger and I appreciate that and that his views usually contrast with mine but are genuinely held.
IMO there has always been a degree of hypocrisy in the wests view of itself- ever since we conquered the world and subjugated almost every other culture.
But we are not all bad.
But now we have become divided within and are being challenged by China and others who are rejecting continued US hegemony.
These challengers are not liberal democracies.
This is war, although so far no direct conflict between China and the US the has been and is plenty of military conflict between proxies.
In times of war extreme measures are required/justified/implemented.
I think it is important we try to understand all sides in any conflict and remember that seldom is one side entirely in the right.
The West is being challenged in part because it is decadent, divided and chaotic.
Since you could take this and apply it to every country it doesnt mean much. It also ignores critical points like the COIVD lockdown and what that did to people as well as how this isn't just a MAGA or Trump thing both sides are doing it.
US elections have had issues going all the way back to the 1824 with the House of Reps deciding the President. The attacks on Media, dehumanization, and even the glorification of violence all are things that the left does as well. With my understanding of how this whole system works you cant really have two rivaling fascist system in place at the same time but that is exactly what the MAGA and Left are. Two groups that are utilizing the same tactics. The Left just doesnt have a energizing person like MAGA its much more decentralized.
There are just so many flaws with this and more or less just taking things that have gone on for decades to centuries in the US and now say that its fascist is well pretty low level logic.
Do two wrongs make a right?
My father always insisted they don't, although he was sometimes a hypocrit.
Leaders tend to apply different rules to themselves than their subordinates.
My view is that USA and The West in general is losing its long taken for granted preeminence and is both divided within and being challenged from without.
This is war we are already in and reactionary strongmen like Trump are appealing to those who seek a sense of security in times of danger.
Whether or not such strongmen deliver is arguable but if The West remains divided it will be less able to continue its hegemony over all others.
Interested in your views on this podcast interview if you have the time and inclination to view it- it is over 100 minutes but covers some fascinating territory and insights.
https://www.youtube.com/live/RfnlAWc76sY
Full interview in the link, but I just discovered that it asks for an email address for access. If you don't want to provide one, but are curious, there is a 24 minute preview version of the interview on YT: