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The double empathy problem www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/double-empathy

1094 sats \ 16 comments \ @ek 26 Nov mostly_harmless

According to the theory of the ‘double empathy problem’, these issues are not due to autistic cognition alone, but a breakdown in reciprocity and mutual understanding that can happen between people with very differing ways of experiencing the world. If one has ever experienced a conversation with someone who one does not share a first language with, or even an interest in the topic of a conversation, one may experience something similar (albeit probably briefly).

The double empathy problem is very related to @kepford's post about not being an idiot.

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77 sats \ 3 replies \ @elvismercury 26 Nov

As stated here, I think this is a general state of humankind thing (even beyond humankind actually, the problem is generally information-theoretic).

All people are interpreting all other people according to available schemas and experience and tacit assumptions and can interact based on that shared catalogue - it's just that autistic people violate the schemas most people have on hand.

Are autistic people able to communicate with each other more effectively? If so, is it bc of shared experience, or just because they make no assumption of sharing experience?

101 sats \ 2 replies \ @adlai 26 Nov

Are autistic people able to communicate with each other more effectively? If so, is it bc of shared experience, or just because they make no assumption of sharing experience?

It's not a hard rule, although often people at similar levels of the spectrum will get along better than those from different levels. The resulting interaction is a little different from when two normal people with a shared interest connect over it; folks on the spectrum are quite good at "downloading" while the interlocutor "infodumps", and good luck getting a neurotypical to participate in this sort of interaction if they're not making a conscious effort to be polite... ironically enough, this effort is quite similar to how high-functioning autists describe that they can mask their condition and behave normally, although it takes a continued conscious effort.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @elvismercury 26 Nov

Thanks.

My understanding was that the "spectrum" is less a spectrum (e.g., EM spectrum) than a high-dimensional subspace, s.t. people can have conditions that make them quite diverse in the ways they want to take in stimuli, including interaction w/ other people.

Do you know if that's right? How does such a thing factor in?

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @adlai 16h

[...] the "spectrum" is less a spectrum (e.g., EM spectrum) than a high-dimensional subspace,

sure; however I caution that the familiar portion of the EM spectrum actually is also a low-finite-dimensional space, spanned by a basis consisting of whichever frequencies trigger your rods, cones, and various other peripheral nerves. The rainbow might look smooth from a distance, yet spectra discretize at both emission and absorption.

s.t. people can have conditions that make them quite diverse in the ways they want to take in stimuli, including interaction w/ other people.

right; the only thing worse than masking 24/7 is doing it 40/51 plus overtime, for decades of a career, and then some shmuck tells you that you're not being yourself the first time you unwind the social fiction compliance by a few clicks.

the adjective "neurotypical" loosely refers to some boring and undifferentiated neighborhood surrounded by a laughably false dichotomy, although proving this offends the social fiction of normality, and is thus academically risky.

Do you know if that's right? How does such a thing factor in?

All I can say with confidence about modern neuroscience is that they haven't declared war against psychiatry yet in response to the DSM-V categorising irrational happiness as a diagnosable condition... why should I bother chasing the moving target of how they euphemise metasocial consciousness this decade? Is the pressure to perform unsupervised learning so strong, and the lack of anything more interesting to read so dire, that I must actually respect that noise?

People deserve respect; academic disciplines don't.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 26 Nov

Oh my, I wanted to give this article a serious read but then in the first paragraph it says that the author works at the "Tizard" center! Haha

Anyway, will keep reading

This theory would also suggest that those with similar experiences are more likely to form connections and a level of understanding, which has ramifications in regard to autistic people being able to meet one another.

This paragraph is interesting. Does it suggest that all autistic people experience the world the same way and thus can connect with each other better? Or is it more along the lines of they can connect over their experience of being misunderstood by others?

I have a friend who is going through something like this, where he's constantly accusing everyone of not understanding him. It's kinda tough though, because he wasn't always like this, and he's also really aggressive about it, and it's causing tensions in his marriage and friendships. So we're all wondering what changed and how to help him.

50 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 26 Nov

This is an interesting statement.

right from the start, from the time someone came up with the word ‘autism’, the condition has been judged from the outside, by its appearances, and not from the inside according to how it is experienced."

(Donna Williams, 1996)

86 sats \ 2 replies \ @optimism 26 Nov

I think we used to call this culture shock back in the day. But, isn't it true that if we take a step back and put in just a tiny bit of effort to search for similarities instead of differences, they can be found even while experiencing culture shock or the double empathy problem?

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @kepford 26 Nov

Yes, if people look for differences they will always find them. No matter how slight. We have so much in common. It's not hard to find but many are willfully ignorant of this.

Its no way to live.

100 sats \ 0 replies \ @ek OP 26 Nov

Mhh, I think culture shock is a specific instance of the double empathy problem

0 sats \ 6 replies \ @bitcoingraffiti 11h

The problem always with these scientists is that they're not empathic enough to work outside of academia. Hence they have to come up with these silly theories. Honestly, if you're a real empath, you can empathize with all, and there's no such thing as a double empathy problem.

The empath however is never understood, and usually is avoided/disregarded/demonized as they are too confrontational and too much of a mirror. Because it would be incredibly scary if they could read you. You can't hide behind your mask anymore, and your whole identity you invested so badly in crumbles in their presence.

Better to deny, be jealous of, or bully (proving they have a read on you).

This is why mental illnesses/divergences will never get fixed within the academic or pharmaceutic paradigm, because they simply don't have the empathic range to understand the issues at the deepest level. It's feeling, not thinking that delivers the cure. And often people are not sick, (but only labeled as) they just grow up in sick societies that are ill adapted to their specific needs.

0 sats \ 5 replies \ @ek OP 11h

Sounds like you're not empathetic enough to understand where this theory is coming from

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @bitcoingraffiti 11h

Tell me

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @ek OP 11h

Doesn't #1290442 sound to you like a problem with empathy on both sides of the political spectrum?

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @bitcoingraffiti 11h

I was replying to the article, not your (or kepfords) personal situation.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @ek OP 11h

This isn’t my personal situation, so I assume you didn’t even click the link.

I only mentioned it because you said, "there’s no such thing as a double empathy problem," but in my opinion, #1290442 is a counterexample.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @bitcoingraffiti 10h

I guess it is always a double empathy problem as long as not one of the parties is empathic. It's a theory for non-empathic people.