I would say running your own node is like asking people to run their own email server, but holding your own keys is more like holding your own ID which everyone with a bank account would do! You don't leave your ID with the bank! You hold it and use it as proof of ownership
I've been in this game long enough to know analogies don't matter, incentives do and don't hold your keys and get rugged, don't get into bitcoin and get slow rugged, not my problem!
Someone's going to have to make the mistakes that will lead to them exchanging their goods and services for any amount of bitcoin in the future, it just isn't going to be me
It depends how much work we let "similar" do. The analogy is fine, in that most people probably will opt for the lower technical hurdle of outsourcing that function.
I think running your own email server is a much more foreign concept for people. Holding your own keys isn't that different from keeping track of your passwords for other stuff.
Holding your own keys isn't that different from keeping track of your passwords for other stuff.
Yea it's a bad analogy for L1, email servers are synchronous, requiring some hefty configuration to route messages. Bitcoin is asynchronous and the network relays instead of routes. Apples and oranges.
The analogy of an email server in the context of Lightning is more appropriate, and I use that a lot myself since Lightning is synchronous, there are considerations for routing via the network.
Even a Lightning node though is orders of magnitude simpler than an email server, that's not to say we should expecteveryone to run one, but we should expect and strive for Lightning to be orders of magnitude more decentralized and less permissioned than email.
I agree. He was unfortunate in his choice of words when he talked about adoption, because when I introduce someone to bitcoin the first interaction is through custodial LN. In that case running an email server is a good analogy for running your own Lightning channel.
Holding your own keys isn't that different from keeping track of your passwords for other stuff.
Agreed. This makes a lot of sense to me. The main difference though is the "no one is coming to help you" factor of bitcoin keys. People are very used to the process of resetting passwords. It will be hard to get people into the no-recovery mode of Bitcoin.
Without disputing your eloquent summary of his take, I'm curious how you respond to the seemingly low interest in actually using bitcoin (by which I mean, holding your own keys). Are we just early? Do you anticipate a significantly greater adoption of self-sovereign bitcoin usage?
We are very early. And more than that, people are still too dumb for bitcoin. People are so dumb that will embrace CBDC before bitcoin.
The hard truth: people don't want to be responsible for their own actions. And that's why many are afraid of using Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is forcing them to be responsible,
Some smart people prefer trusting chosen authority; for example, family units might delegate all the financial complications to one of the parents, and if an entire tribe operates this way, then any individual child doesn't face risk of getting disenfranchised, as long as the treasurers have standardised recovery infrastructure for preserving inheritances.
may I encourage you today to consider a word other than "dumb" ?
please remember, my goal is aligned with yours; I want to help you reach a larger audience, and more effectively preach to the audience you already have.
I think lots of folks1 are ideologically receptive to regular good old Bitcoin Maximalism, however they might have various qualms about learning more; one of these is the embarassment of having been aware of Bitcoin for a long time, but first encountered it in scam warnings, and thus written it off.... then today, they feel like they've "missed the boat", and might even privately think of themselves as stupid. There's a huge and important difference between privately thinking of yourself as having been stupid in the past, and getting called stupid by someone else in the present.
I honestly think the problem for most people is similar to whether they're "too dumb for calculus". They could probably figure it out, with the right combination of time, motivation, and resources; mentorship helps, although I doubt all four are equally necessary.
Footnotes
most of whom aren't on this site yet, although they might someday read screenshots, or even visit after someone shares a link... ↩
I think the bar for "actually using bitcoin" is higher than only holding your own keys; at minimum, you must have supervision, or even exclusive control, of some parts of verification.... otherwise, you might hold keys generated privately from your offline wxBitcoin and share the address publicly, only for your grandchildren to discover that your idiot friend sent bcash to the address that was valid on both chains.
I have relatively strong opinions about whether certain dubious practices1 fall within the range of mature and respectable "use of bitcoin", however I realise that there are so many quirks and features accumulated in the decade-plus that the system has been suffering through its very own tragedy of the commons, that I consider some of them open to debate.
Footnotes
the champion is giving away private keys, rather than bothering to run signing infrastructure... "you want the treasure? knock yourself out" ↩
A very stupid take. Running mail infrastructure requires technical knowledge. It requires ongoing maintenance. People avoid it today because it is and always was difficult. Complexity lies with things like SPF, DKIM and DMARC. All which require custom configurations to interact with the mail network.
Even running a Bitcoin Core full node is trivial compared to Mail, it requires no out of the box configurations. Download, run it, sync the chain.
I would not accept the argument that running a full node is like running a mail server either, its significantly easier, but does require some resources (fast net connection, storage for blocks, etc).
Running a self-custodial wallet, and recording the seed phrase, like with Blockstream Green Wallet, is a basic thing that everyone on the planet can do. The level of complexity is somewhere near "install candy crush" and "use a pen and paper". Trivial for billions to do right here and now, today.
Don't let these morons come up with excuses. Install an app. Write down some words. Any idiot on the planet can do this.
I am periodically telling here that self custody should be made as easy as possible. When I point out some obvious problems with the current solutions, they are often dismissed with "if somebody is not smart enough to do something, they do not deserve bitcoin and they and their children deserve to DIE a horrible death!!!! 1!1!1".
I often think about driving cars and how in many places around the world, humans managed to figure out how to use motor vehicles. Similarly, mistakes with cars can have severe consequences (even death!); similarly, there is extensive infrastructure required to make it convenient; similarly, there is some amount of learning that is involved in successfully using a car.
So there is hope that people will both make Bitcoin easier to use and that people will be willing to learn how to use it.
I've been thinking about the value proposition of bitcoin a lot lately. To me, there is really only one use for Bitcoin that underpins all the other things we might like about it, and that is censorship resistance.
So then I wonder, in this world that some people like Bitcoin Research are describing, would users of Bitcoin maintain this property? I think the answer is no. But maybe there is a case to be made that I'm wrong there.
I won't argue with you on that, except that there's still OGs that actually held on to much of their coin (not me, I'm a retard compared to those people because I didn't keep a fiat job). If ultimately something needs to give, I'm not entirely sure that its the institutional coercible value that wins, they got in late, relatively. So principled actors may still win in the end, but the printer is a bigger enemy than I'd like.
Bottom line: are you willing to get rekt over principles? Because that's what it comes down to.
nothing is wrong with it. but I think the fact that many people do not has made it more difficult for people who do. I worry that a similar dynamic would play out in bitcoin.
It's much easier to hold your keys of bitcoin than manage your own mail server. No need to manage DNS and other very annoying things like dealing with ISP, having a fixed DNS, PRT record etc. One can simply setup a umbrel or start 9 node and validate heir own keys with electrs or fulcrum connected to sparrow or electrum. BTW I bake my own bread also lol
I don't agree with the statement. Holding your own keys is significantly easier than running an email server and keeping it updated. However, a counterpoint is that holding your own keys does put more on the line if you screw things up.
I don't run my own email server. But I've had enough trouble with spam filters wrecking my day when I try to do email through my own domain that I worry a similar dynamic could be created with bitcoin: if we rely on a diversity of service providers to give us bitcoin services and then they get mergered and we only get a few big providers and then things are gated. Also: we live at the mercy of our email providers. If google and microsoft refuse to let your emails reach inboxes, good luck on getting any business done in this world.
I'd say "run your own (lightning) node" is more similar to running own email server, in terms of technical know-how needed and expectation of effort on their part
Let's stick to the physical analogy evoked by "keys", rather than get all tangled up in the noise that results from worrying about online communications...
Nomadic1 people can pay the postal service for a mailbox, and keep their own keys; while one of the most frequent complaints of lawn-owners is that some drunk [or vindictive] driver has knocked down their mailbox.
Footnotes
edited to replace "homeless" with "nomadic", and deliberately highlighting this in the footnote; I realise there's a complete venn diagram, and a third circle could be added by asking whether people lived this way by choice... still, the neutral adjective "nomadic" is probably more appropriate for this discussion, than the pejorative "homeless". ↩
Totally see the parallel here. Both 'hold your own keys' and 'run your own email server' are about taking control and responsibility for your own data/security.
Running a server is significantly harder than writing some words down and keeping it safe. Of course its better to upgrade from there but I bet there are millions of Bitcoin secured this way. It means that it's working too!
Hold L1 keys with relative ease, grateful to be able to be in direct control of my liquid capital. Thank you Satoshi.
IOU fiat bank deposits are more complex, compromised and risky imo.
Self custody is what the protocol was built to enable...other options are not Bitcoin.
ETFs are shitcoin DINO compromising of the protocol...freezing sats out of P2P functionality...hoarding them into corporate banker custody.
HWs are a FUD based scam.
Use Proton for email. Hopefully they are not a front/scam?
Coinos for LN convenience. Calculated risk with small sums to support and enable utility and adoption of MoE.
Linux for OS.
Absolute freedom is difficult as humans are social animals and will always naturally form groups/governments for security, economies of scale, power projection and property rights enforcement but the fiat banks have acquired too much power and fiat needs some healthy competition which Bitcoin has, and is providing.
Only acquire Bitcoin if you want to be part of the peaceful and voluntary collective monetary revolution building an alternative to the sly fiat debt slavery bankers cartel who have come to own and direct your government.
Freedom is seldom free of risk...most people will not seek, let alone achieve it.
why the long ramble? several of your points could lead to interesting discussion, although almost nobody will see the comment, because nobody zapped something that rambles so far off-topic...
Footnotes
Footnotes
Footnotes