Bitcoin-based UBI - Metamick \ stacker news ~tech

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Bitcoin-based UBI - Metamick x.com/metamick14/status/1963931667212451970

320 sats \ 34 comments \ @Scoresby 5 Sep tech

zaps forwarded to @metamick14 (100%)

I have a hard time believing a UBI of any sort could actually work well, but here is an interesting concept from @metamick14

The acceleration of technology is impressive and many will lose their jobs. There is still so much to build and people will need to transition to the new jobs.

But the process won't be smooth, many will take time to transition.

So the UBI conversation starts.

However, Bitcoin works as a solution to that, people will be able to save more through it. They might decide to work less, study more powered by savings. So it solves the key criticism given to UBI (that it disincentivizes work) by freeing people from wage slavery.

So, Bitcoin-based UBI fosters more creative, voluntary economies vs. just subsistence."

How do you fund it?

Philantropy

Community-oriented approaches

Grants,...

Miners sharing sats in the communities where they mine

Possibly even government programs if they are sustainable (better than programmable shitcoin systems)

This is where I'm at

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123 sats \ 5 replies \ @optimism 5 Sep

https://geyser.fund/launchpad ... what's preventing these to get funded?

Why would I fund "UBI for a couple billion strangers" if I'm not funding "My son needs surgery for a single stranger"?

100 sats \ 4 replies \ @Scoresby OP 5 Sep

Yes. Probably, in the tradition of democracy, some highly vocal and motivated subset of the population will take it upon itself to force you to fund them.

Maybe the UBI supporters would argue that it is in the government's own interest to do this because otherwise the peasants will get restless?

102 sats \ 0 replies \ @optimism 5 Sep

I guess that moving to Guatemala isn't a bad idea (Article 38 of their constitution provides for 2A-like rights) in the face of potentially either an organization with the monopoly to violence desiring one's sats, or the mob with torches and pitchforks.

Luckily, it's easier to just make the printer go brrrrrr

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @fourrules 5 Sep

force you to fund them Describe the mechanism or go home

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Scoresby OP 5 Sep

Describe the mechanism or go home

Taxes?

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @fourrules 5 Sep

If the UBI is denominated in bitcoin then it's not taxes, because you can't collect bitcoin taxes without consent.

If it's denominated in fiat then tax payers will rush into Bitcoin and other hard assets, as happened during COVID.

Fundamentally, UBI is dead and this debate is pointless until people like you evolve in the direction of Participation Income.

203 sats \ 0 replies \ @0xbitcoiner 5 Sep

Europe’s leading the way with UBIs, but it’s also a big mess when it comes to immigration. I agree with them on some stuff, but gotta admit, there’s a bunch of ass milking the system. What we really need is tighter control. A Bitcoin-based UBI? That’s the next step — just a matter of time.

112 sats \ 0 replies \ @fourrules 5 Sep

I can get on board with a decentralised participation income system that artfully and with tacit consent from the tax paying electorate debases the currency in order to provide an income to people who contribute to society in a manner that is difficult for the market to monetise, e.g. looking after a disabled child or elderly parent, rehabilitating former convicts through community initiatives, various ancillary aspects of the health system, basically doing anything that the state would otherwise be compelled to fund by a society in decay.

People would be free to vote against such a voluntary system by moving their money into Bitcoin, putting a hard limit on the state's ability to pay out the income denominated in fiat, meaning if people want the system to exist they better justify it and design it well so that tax payers and higher earners consent.

This would be a more sane version of the welfare state.

But UBI is just bullshit.

102 sats \ 17 replies \ @orto 5 Sep

In my opinion, UBI could be like that: People should be offered jobs to meet their basic needs. I think it's possible. Of course, all appropriate assistance can be given to those who don't able to work. UBI job examples: Gardening, carpentry, babysitting, driver, etc. For example, the municipality will allocate a field and all kinds of tools, equipment and training will be provided for people without income to work there.

144 sats \ 5 replies \ @DarthCoin 5 Sep

Statism = Slavery

0 sats \ 4 replies \ @orto 5 Sep

Statism, when applied correctly, frees a nation from slavery. We've been through it. We built the modern Turkish economy thanks to statism. Turkey is among the top 20 economies in the world. In the early years of its establishment, even finding bread was a problem. Then, as a result of the corruption of the people and the administration, we went after the United States. (big mistake for us). We summarize the foundations on which our founder built the country under 6 headings: Statism Nationalism Secularism Republicanism Benefit to the public Revolutionism In my opinion, Ataturk-style statism is the biggest enemy of the brutality of capitalism and the slavery of communism.

41 sats \ 3 replies \ @DarthCoin 5 Sep

Statism, when applied correctly, frees a nation from slavery

LOL such bullshit

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orto 5 Sep

We lived, we lived...

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @orto 5 Sep

According to you, it is. Not for me. It's bad that you don't keep your tongue clean. You won't hear such words from me.

21 sats \ 0 replies \ @DarthCoin 5 Sep

You are too brainwashed. Your're a lost cause.

You won't hear such words from me.

That only shows how brainwashed you are, you even censor yourself.

123 sats \ 4 replies \ @fourrules 5 Sep

What you're is participation income, and that is where we are headed ultimately. It just needs to be decentralised in it's administration, you can't have an party allowed to determine what is and is not a valid contribution to society, needs to be a market system funded by artfully debasing the fiat currency.

0 sats \ 3 replies \ @orto 5 Sep

Why do you think of it as one party? There are all parties in the municipalities. Yours may be different out there. The important thing is to be able to bring decent and good people to the administration. We're all focused on our petty interests...

10 sats \ 2 replies \ @fourrules 5 Sep

I'm not referring to a political party, but the permanent administration, the system, which is only lightly influenced by political parties.

102 sats \ 1 reply \ @orto 5 Sep

OK. I think the problem is with people. No system can function properly unless there are decent individuals. We need to develop people.

20 sats \ 0 replies \ @fourrules 5 Sep

You don't sound like a Bitcoiner.

Surely you agree that Bitcoin is premised on selfishness, goodness out of greed, and that the underlying principles of proof of work apply to literally any social system?

Bitcoin is part of a continuum, the next step in incremental progress of our species, from barbarism towards grace.

10 sats \ 3 replies \ @Scoresby OP 5 Sep

Universal Basic Job

0 sats \ 2 replies \ @orto 5 Sep

It certainly is. Municipalities spend millions on flowering and landscaping. Of course, there should also be flowers, but if they grew vegetables, it would be much more meaningful and beneficial. Vegetables will be produced by citizens who do not have a job in exchange for UBI salary.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Fenix 7 Sep

citizens = slaves

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orto 7 Sep

I can't imagine a community that lives without rules. If the individual is good and decent, everything will be fine.

You can tie the equality you presented above to a single word Anarchy

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @SwapMarket 6 Sep

That's called planned economy

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @orto 6 Sep

You should also plan the UBI in order to work properly.

102 sats \ 2 replies \ @SwapMarket 6 Sep

I don't see how a UBI can work at all. World economy is a zero sum game. To give value to some group of people one must deduct it from some other group. All this demagogy amounts to bolsheviks' idea to "grab (value from the rich) and divide (equally among all)". We know how this worked out.

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @standardcrypto 6 Sep

don't be such a pessimist, dekulakization can work, we just need to fine tune it better.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SwapMarket 6 Sep

Oh, I am sure you will find plenty of supporters who dream to live off other people's wealth. The problem is, once you abolish private property protection by law, it always turns into a bloody mess. Greed guarantees the race to the bottom where no one wants to produce anything. Just plunder the neighbor instead.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @Fenix 7 Sep

You can voluntarily give your Bitcoin to whoever you want. The problem is expecting results from coercive crowdfunding for people who don't work.

His whole argument is a bunch of "ifs." If technology accelerates and everyone needs to change jobs (unrealistic), if people hold on to their Bitcoin more, if people decide to participate in this massive philanthropic funding without clear objectives. It's all very shiny, just the way statists like it.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @SimpleStacker 5 Sep

I think people really have to clarify what they mean by UBI.

Does everyone get it? Unconditionally, even the already wealthy? Or is it means-tested?

Is it paired with cuts to other social services, or is it added in addition to existing social services?

I'm not sympathetic to the jobs argument. Technology has always disrupted jobs. People have always found new ways to provide value to each other. UBI was never a solution that worked as a response to technology-driven job disruption.

I'm also not sympathetic that UBI can replace other social services. Inevitably, someone is going to make bad choices and waste their UBI, and society is going to vote to help them anyway

0 sats \ 1 reply \ @Zion 5 Sep

While it could help people save and study, wouldn't volatility in Bitcoin's value complicate things? Also, relying on miners or philanthropy for funding seems like it could create uneven distribution, some communities might get more than others.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @chaoticalHeavy 5 Sep

it could create uneven distribution, some communities might get more than others.

That would be great, if the increase in distribution in some areas also coincided with more Bitcoin tolerance.

0 sats \ 0 replies \ @nitter 5 Sep

https://xcancel.com/metamick14/status/1963931667212451970