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Interesting tidbit about Mamdani's win in New York:
And we can't deny what's happened to software-dominated places like SF and Seattle
Fits with my experience. I think it’s from thinking they’re smarter than everyone else and being completely oblivious to Mises’ Socialist Calculation Problem.
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So you think it comes from a place of thinking that society just needs to be engineered by smart people and then we'd all be happy
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Yep, it’s just run of the mill technocracy, which they’re basically unaware has failed repeatedly already or they think it failed because the “right” people were never in charge.
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I think you are basically right....but as a Gen-Xer who has been in tech since the late 80s, it wasn't always like this.
The tech scene was decidedly libertarian borderline AnCap from 80s - mid-2000s.
I mean reddit was basically Ron Paul HQ Central at its founding.
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When/how did things start to change?
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182 sats \ 9 replies \ @freetx 25 Jun
I would say about 2010 was the watershed moment. Not sure why though? Generational? Social media?
Reddit is a good example of how echo chambers are created by purging dissent.
I made a comment on Reddit recently in north county San Diego subreddit. I quoted a passage from WSJ editorial. One reply was you demonstrated that you get your news from social media.
Where do kids get their news today? Please tell me it’s not corporate legacy media
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I assume they get their news from online influencers.
This shift has always puzzled me and for whatever reason the enshittification of tech followed shortly afterwards.
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That’s interesting. Maybe once it became a major profession the types of people pursuing it changed.
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that seems like a very plausible hypothesis
No, the issue stems from the university system these engineers are coming out of. It’s part of a broader trend among graduates. They’re taught that capitalism and corporations are inherently evil, even as they draw six-figure salaries from those same companies.
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10 sats \ 7 replies \ @lrm_btc 10h
Economics wasn't a requirement for the engineering curriculum at the university I attended. I found this astonishing.
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He probably means from other humanities or social science courses.
It's rare for economics to be required specifically and, as bad as mainstream econ can be, econ courses are not likely to directly advocate communism.
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I'm not exactly unbiased, but I think at least one econ course should be required of every college graduate.
Since we justify public funding of education by saying it's required to have informed citizens, we should at least train them in the subject most useful for understanding how the world works.
Yeah, the only one that I took taught free market principles.
Yes that engineers have central planning tendencies. I can write a program to optimize society whatever the hell that means
Definitely related to technocratic ambitions
Edit: I should have said technocratic hubris
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deleted by author
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At least one of the people I'm thinking of didn't go to college, so I'm not sure that's it.
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Yeah, I know plenty that seem to think the problem with communism was that they didn't have the right people or systems in place and we can do it now with the tech we have....
I have never heard any mention Mises at all by these people. They aren't reading philosophy. I know one exception who is a big fan of decentralization but he's no socialist.
I mean, think about it. Communism was supposedly a society driven by science...
Of course that is incredibly naive.
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I think naive is exactly the right word. They have a lifetime of experience being able to solve problems that others can’t and it doesn’t occur to them that some problems are fundamentally unsolvable.
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109 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 25 Jun
It also hasn't occurred to them that many systems are not broken. They are working as DESIGNED!
I ALWAYS lead with this when I talk about the problems with communism/socialism.
Even if you have the smartest people in the world and the most moral people in the world setting it up and facilitating it you'd still fail. Why? The calculation problem. Of course the AI maxis will probably think they can do it... if people can't get that this is a fool's errand I don't waste my time.
Usually these people are very naive in many other areas as well. Looking at incentives is a great angle to take on so many things. Usually the people that get incentives aren't engineers unless they have worked with the UX or marketing side of the businesses. I've always worked closely with those sides and I'm able to talk to normal people and engineers alike. Bridging the divide. Empathy is undervalued as a learned skill IMO. It can be a multiplier for an engineer's career.
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It's a great point. Public Choice Theory is the other death blow to statism. Even if it could be planned, no group of real human beings would plan it to optimize the general welfare.
the AI maxis will probably think they can do it
They do...but, again, it's only because they don't actually bother to learn what the calculation problem is.
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31 sats \ 1 reply \ @kepford 25 Jun
You nailed it.
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People recycling the same old bad ideas but they think they are being innovative or avant garde
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50 sats \ 1 reply \ @sox 23h
I try to stay away from public politics discussions, but I would say that software engineers are socialist because they solve problems.
Socialism advocates for a better world by solving social issues, so it checks out.
Everyone’s different, I met more right-leaning engineers than left-leaning ones.
edit: also really important to remember that software engineers are more likely to be narcissists, so this fits more the question
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Agree
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40 sats \ 1 reply \ @fourrules 23h
Big data, AI, wearables, these are the wet dreams of central planners. A percentage of software engineers leans into this for social status within a branch of tech leadership that is in favour in social engineering. It also helps them to disarm women in the field, like the cuttlefish that they are.
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Agree
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well... FOSS is pretty socialist if you ask old lawyers
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92 sats \ 1 reply \ @lrm_btc 25 Jun
In my experience, yes. They think they can design the world.
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I mean they think they can design much smaller things and fail very often in those endeavors. But with the AI hype get ready for a new crop of tech socialists.
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I doubt that it could be true. Software engineers are most of time isolated in coding and learning and luck part of being socialist.
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I think there is some truth to this. Software engineers as I know them are rather well paid, but also very aware of the privileges that come with it, so the challenge of designing a system that elevates everyone to the same level of wellbeing is definitely there (even if sometimes only as a mind game). Being an engineering discipline we also rarely deal in absolutes, rather we are aware that tradeoffs are necessary to make progress in the real world. And finally, as several people have pointed out there is also some hubris involved, since rule setting and world building is much of a software engineers daily work (but with the realism that every set of rules can be exploited, hence we don't tend to strive for perfection, rather a good enough).
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Something I find stunning though is that no software engineer would think it's a good idea to go in and just refactor the entire codebase without first studying it deeply to understand how it functions, yet they think somehow it would be smart to elect commies that want to do exactly that.
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Haha, you mustn't know many software engineers :-)
I know plenty who have exactly this instinct, and would do it if they could get paid to do it, and the calamity that ensues would always be other people's responsibility and failure.
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Hmm good point lol
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But this is hardly specific to software engineers, as people embedded in certain contexts, it think we all tend to bring our work and context to the political table. Noatter which orientation.
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30 sats \ 2 replies \ @aljaz 25 Jun
Tech is somehow riddled with commie cunts. I used to be involved in the hacking community and that also turned completely woke&commie, which is funny and sad at the same time.
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wonder why
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Density of people with mental issues
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I think that it's more a generic live and let live (liberal) attitude. It's easy to not care if you don't really feel much pain because you're on the high end of the salary range. I expect that we will witness a shift in the coming years, now that the profession is potentially coming a bit under pressure. VC bros flipped too and they have an outsized influence.
I'm not sure if it matters though. It's not been special to be a software developer in general since like 15 years or so and the really talented young people that will make the difference don't have time for nor care about politics.
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In my experience no. But because of the type of minds that do well in engineering you get many people that think about base questions. This means you get anarchists, communists, and contrarian thinkers. You also get people that think they are contrarian but aren't. In my years in the industry I've run across all stripes. But, the vast majority are rather normie in their political thoughts.
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0 sats \ 0 replies \ @carter 18h
*Richard Stallman has entered the chat
Isn't that what Open Source Software is?
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