Background on me:
I have spent 30 years in technology including nearly a decade as a product director at Google, a long-time angel investor, and most recently 6 years as the head of Block's Spiral initiative. My contributions to bitcoin include helping create Presidio Bitcoin, open source software projects including LDK, BDK and the BDK Foundation, and Stratum v2 reference implementation project, the bitcoin design community, the bitcoin consensus analysis project, COPA including defeating Craig Wright, Bitcoin Optech, ₿trust, Block’s mining business, and the PBJ show.
What questions would you like me to answer?
Latest news from Spiral? Is Lightning alive or dead? Am I completely crazy suggesting we ditch sats? What is Presidio Bitcoin up to? Should everyone immediately abandon Bitcoin Core? What is ₿product? Why did I become yet another podcaster?
Which covenants proposal, if any, do you prefer?
My view:
When are the Square Point-of-Sale terminals going to allow payment with lightning in San Francisco? What is currently the biggest blocker? Has the test at bitcoin conference been successful? Do you have any video of the experience?
It was very successful in Vegas. I believe Square announced availability later this year at the conference. I too look forward to using it in SF!
Do you have any connection to that work or is that outside of your scope?
I didn't know you had a podcast now - cool! What's the elevator pitch for why folks should come check it out? What makes your show unique/different?
Yeah you can find Presidio Bitcoin Jam, or PBJ, here https://www.youtube.com/@PresidioBitcoin
The elevator pitch is simple: "where bitcoin meets Silicon Valley." We don't have guests on the show. It is just the 3 co-hosts, all of whom have significant experience in Silicon Valley, but also very deep-rooted bitcoiners, discussing topics and news that pop up during the previous week, and layering in our questions and analysis. We hope to attract people from big tech to bitcoin, because we observe a big gap between what Silicon Valley thinks and understands about bitcoin compared to how bitcoiners think about bitcoin. We hope to close the gap! That said, I suspect bitcoiners will enjoy the show too because I'm not aware of another show that covers many of the topics we do in the way that we do.
What is your biggest problem currently and what are your plans to solve it?
If I may, I'll speak to 2:
For 1, we're in a pretty bad state right now with 3 entities controlling nearly 90% of the hash rate, and 1 entity potentially flirting with 50% of the hash rate. We desperately need adoption of Stratum v2 to allow miners to select their own transactions. Longer term, I think the Braidpool project is promising. While still in the R&D stage, if it is successfully built, it can address the centralization risk that the FPPS mining pool payout method introduces.
As for making bitcoin everyday money, it is why I have worked in the space the past 7 years, and why I continue to work on it. While I fully embrace bitcoin as a store of value, I think that has already pretty much won. There isn't a lot of software and design improvements for it to succeed. Whereas, using bitcoin as everyday money has lots of software, design, and product work to be done. I think it is important because using bitcoin as everday money unlocks even more value for society and I think it strengthens bitcoin as a store of value as well.
Most of Spiral's focus is on solving these 2 issues.
does the Spiral team have any specific beliefs/hypotheses about how “bitcoin as everyday money” is likely to emerge? is the team mostly in agreement about these paths? does it require some amount of team/internal consensus to prioritize which projects to focus on?
How do you see AI affecting bitcoin?
Love your work, love your podcast.
What does the btc ecosystem need most that it doesn't have, or only weakly has? Define "ecosystem" at whatever scale you want.
Thanks for the kind words.
I think the bitcoin ecosystem could use more proactive engagement on forward-looking design. Fast-forwarding to a future with a billion people using bitcoin as everyday money and what that could look like. Then working backwards from that vision and promoting design best practices to help us get there.
Do you think after HyperBitcoinization the average user of Bitcoin will know or care what layer of Bitcoin (OnChain, Lightinging, Cashu,etc...) they are using on any given transaction?
I'm a big proponent of "hide the lightning" and more generally "hide the technology behind making payments a great experience on bitcoin."
If you fast forward to the future, when bitcoin is used as everyday money, on-chain payments will be very infrequent. Payments are going to be made on a number of technologies which may include e-cash, Liquid, Spark, Ark, ZKP rollups, and of course LN, and of course LN will be the connective glue across all of these systems.
But end users don't need or want to know about all this complexity. They just want to see a bitcoin balance and to send and receive bitcoin.
"hide the technology behind making payments a great experience on bitcoin."
Definitely. You can't think of educating billions of people about some technology before they start using it. Don't you think it would get easier and easier as the time passes? Like maybe one day we start having a preinstalled Lightning app on our phones or we have decentralised phones to make payments in Bitcoin.
Yes I think it already has gotten much easier and this trend will only continue.
There will also be an explosion of bitcoin applications due to recent advances in bitcoin development tools and the emergence of vibe coding. The recent hackathon at Presidio Bitcoin resulted in a number of compelling applications being built in 24 hours, some of which were built by people who don't know how to code.
Since you have a product director experience - What are the main objectives that you are trying to go for with your current work and what metrics do you use to understand how well you are doing? :)
What’s the biggest existential risk you see for Bitcoin that the ecosystem is currently underestimating, and how should we proactively build against it?
Mining centralization
Welcome to SN.
What are your views on Strategy?
I like what Strategy has done to make buying and adopting bitcoin accessible to groups of people and capital that otherwise cannot be exposed to bitcoin. I hope Strategy begins to build useful products that makes bitcoin everyday money and that they fund open source bitcoin development.
I wish more Bitcoiners thought the same about strategy. Anyways that's what I like about Strategy.
Is it the same reason you would also like BlackRock and Fidelity?
Yes I also think BlackRock and Fidelity or good for bitcoin for similar reasons.
As with anything in bitcoin, we always need to monitor any single person or entity that gains too much power to make sure it does not become a threatening centralization point.
How?
You're now telling me you won't like them in future in case... What's a threatening centralisation point?
I didn't say "I won't like them" I said that they merit monitoring. Just like my own company, Block, and even my small dev org, Spiral, merit monitoring. People in bitcoin should always be vigilant and ensure any naturally-forming centralization point does not grow too large.
The obvious centralization point of a BlackRock or Strategy is if they control millions of bitcoin. In the worst case scenario, bitcoin doesn't evolve into everyday money, the only use case is digital gold, and everyone just buys BlackRock's ETF fund or Strategy. Then all bitcoin is controlled by 2 companies...I think we all know where that ends. They would control the rules of bitcoin and could make changes that are antithetical to the principles of bitcoin.
Alright you gonna like them forever even if they reach to the threatening point of holding millions of Bitcoins. Haha. Please don't take it hard on you but do you really believe that a company or individual or whatever holding millions of Bitcoin can make changes to principles of Bitcoin? I thought the Whales couldn't affect anything except the fiat price of Bitcoin.
We cannot take it as a foregone conclusion that bitcoin will always remain decentralized and that it won't be captured by a powerful person, company, or state.
I'd recommend having a look at the bitcoin consensus analysis project, or BCAP, for a framework on how to evaluate the complexity of what prevents the bitcoin protocol from changing as well as how it can change. https://bitcoin-cap.github.io/bcap/
Great nym. Why did you choose it?
And yes you are completely crazy. Sats are the standard.
I have the moneyball name on most services. Chose it way back in 2004 after having read the book.
₿ the standard. Make Sats bitcoin again ;-)
No thanks. I will be continuing to call them sats regardless how people choose to display them.
Book was great. Movie was great. Moneyball changed baseball, not all for the better though.
FWIW I totaly agree that "let the people call it what they wish." So if a product's UI shows "₿4,990" and you speak out loud or message to friends "4,990 sats" that's totally up to you.
I agree with this!
Great because that's what I and pretty much every other bitcoiner I know will do.
That's fine but do recognize 0.001% of people aware of bitcoin are aware of sats.
I don't think it is that low but the point is fair but those people are also used to dollars and cents (and other fiat variations of this) so it is actually easier to get them to understand Bitcoin and sats than Bitcoin and bitcoin.
Dollars and cents are 2 orders of magnitude apart which is very different than 100,000,000x difference. There will be no products priced in both bitcoin and sats, so it is nothing like dollars and cents. Products will only be priced in the base unit of bitcoin.
Welcome back to SN!
What is ₿product?
₿product is an unannounced new initiative. I guess I'll announce it here! Patterned after bitdevs, it will be a monthly meetup following Socratic seminar structure in which we'll discuss making bitcoin everyday money, apps and products in the space, and improving bitcoin design. The intended audience is application builders, product managers, designers, and anyone interested in making bitcoin usable every day.
We're going to start this at the Presidio Bitcoin in San Francisco. We'll meet the 4th Thursday of every month, beginning June 26. Eventually, I'd love to see this adopted in cities around the world, much like bitdevs has.
That's cool, is something similar to what the Bitcoin Product Community is doing?
I'm not aware of much activity in that discord server in the past year or so. But this idea is independent of that - AFAIK they never had in-person meetups.
I can't believe the 10% revenue on liquidity, specially since I saw that this is supposedly just routing not lsp-ing cashapp. Even so it seems absurd given the public fee structure and how much volume you'd have to have to reach that. Can you convince me that its actually real?
The fees are public. Let's say the fees are 1 basis point. How many ₿X payments per year would a node need to forward to generate a 10% return on ₿X capital?
What's your thoughts on SN? how do you compare the experience with your preferred nostr client, and how do you see it evolving as a product?
Love SN! Disclaimer: I'm an investor in it.
I find it to be a very different experience than using Primal or Damus. I enjoy both.
I like the territory vision for SN and empowering territory owners to grow their territory. As with any social media product, the quality of people engaging is extremely important, so I think that's what SN needs to continue to cultivate.
really true, this territory ~AMA is a great example!
How do I quit my fiat job and get hired at spiral? 🌀
Let me know how you'd like to improve bitcoin!
Haha I’ll get back to you
Have you ever had a beer with Jack Dorsey? If so what drink did you order?
Had a local brew in Ghana with Jack.
👏
Is ~lightning dead or alive?
Very much alive!
What are the latest scoops that make you think so?
LN payment volume continues grows 15-20% per month. Block earns 10% return on capital - in bitcoin terms - with their LN node. And LN has already won the rails race between all the different systems wallets use and will use to reach users (Cashu, Fedimint, Ark, Spark, Liquid, etc. all require LN to make payments).
Thoughts on how Bitcoin/Nostr will help solve the problems California is facing right now?
As a fellow west-coaster it breaks my heart seeing what's happening down south :(
Only in a very abstract long-term way. In some cases, bitcoin doesn't fix everything.
What's your bullishness rating on Nostr long-term? How will Spiral play a role in Nostr's growth and adoption?
I'm a supporter of nostr. I'd call myself mildly bullish. I'm definitely glad it exists and that there is energy devoted to it. I view its prospects more positively when viewed as a permissionless content protocol and as a development tool vs. viewing it as a "Twitter clone."
Spiral doesn't provide direct support for nostr but that is solely a focus reason not an opinion on its value.
Steve Lee, a cousin from Jet Lee, Rock Lee and Bruce Lee. that's why he is fast enough to move and stacked more SATS 💪🏼
What’s the weirdest or most memorable grant application spiral has received?
Well this isn't Spiral, but I am also a board member of COPA (open patent alliance that defeated Craig Wright). We received some pretty wild claims by people purporting to be Satoshi.
You recently stated that SV2 benefits everyone while DATUM only benefits a single VC-backed startup. How is that true when SV2 and DATUM are both published under the exact same FOSS MIT license?
From my perspective, OCEAN should be lauded, not criticized, for their efforts to improve Bitcoin for everyone by releasing their software free to the world.
Aside from the licensing topic, can you provide your technical assessment of the pros/cons between SV2 and DATUM? Which user groups are better suited for each?
I do laud Ocean's intended goal of decentralization. My criticism of it is that they didn't introduce anything novel with DATUM, which functionality-wise is a subset of SV2, which already existed prior to Ocean. The Ocean team "doesn't like Rust" and also demonstrated a lack of understanding of what SV2 even is, which seems to have led them to a path of creating their own version.
I'm skeptical other pools are going to adopt DATUM. Worse, Antpool just announced a new decentralized mining pool solution. Details haven't been shared, but I worried it will be yet-another protocol. Competition is good in general, but in this case, if each pool has their own "protocol for decentralization" it defeats the intended purpose. Instead, it will create even more vendor lock-in as miners would have increased switching costs between pools. Therefore, it is very important for miners to adopt a single protocol standard that has widespread support in the industry.
Did you say business? bookmarked for next ~AGORA's TM7
BTW: we recently opened the SN Sellers & Business Club, a new weekly appointment some of you might be interested to join and exchange ideas to make your dreams a reality!
NOW OPENJoin the first edition of the 🤝 SN Sellers & Business Club series!
Let's discuss your Bitcoin Business Models! #1002347
Are you currently looking for investment opportunities in Bitcoin startups? If so, how & where can I pitch my idea? 👀
If you weren’t at spiral what do you think you’d be doing?
The same thing! Either with another org or just on my own.
What’s the most surprising thing you’ve learned running spiral? What’s the hardest part? What’s your favorite part?
Despite having years of software experience under my belt knowing that things always take longer than expected, I remain surprised at how much longer it takes to get things done in bitcoin due to (a) being a protocol (b) being more decentralized than anything else. Having patience for that is the hard part.
My favorite part though is still how much progress so many people can make by building on top of the protocols. It is satisfying to see how much more usable bitcoin is today than 6 years ago, and I cannot wait to see what it looks like 6 years from now.
Which intelligence agency or corporate influence operation controls Block and therefore Spiral, and why does that mean you and Matt have to be on the wrong side of just about everything?
Matt and I both work for the CIA of course.
Clowns in America, definitely checks out.
ThanQ
Respect for all the work you’ve done seriously stacked résumé. I'd love to hear:
What's the real status of Spiral right now is it still pushing forward meaningfully?
Lightning: where do you stand today, and what needs to happen to move it forward?
And yeah… why ditch sats? Curious what you’d propose instead.
Also, definitely wanna hear more on ₿product sounds like it could shake things up.